Timing belt lower pulley keyway nightmare.....

Angus · Post by **Angus** » 19 Mar 2007, 18:06

Hi, I have recently registered on here.

I have a Citroen xsara 1.9TD estate, which I bought last year for some cheap to run load lugging transport.
Not long after I bought it, it started to make a click while running and immediatly start producing acrid white smoke from the exhaust. This had me baffeled for a long time, I continued to drive the car (big mistake) and checked and adjusted the cold start thermostatic bit on the pump, removed the solonoid and checked it and generaly scratched my head. I finaly removed the intercooler and turbo pressure hose to the pump and ran the car pressurising the line to the pump. Anyway to cut a long story short, I thought I would change the timing belt, as I thought it might have jumped a tooth.

I removed the covers and engine mount and undid the lower pully to crankshaft nut......... which was loose!!!!!!!!!!!! The key ways which should hold the timing are a right mess on the pullys and not much better on the crankshaft its self.
I found this site by searching for Citroen timing pully on Google and see that a member "Lolingram" has had a similar problem. I am fairly mechanicaly minded but could do with some advise as to how to deal with the problem.

The serpentine pully is worn on the face that sits against the timing pulley... The timing pully is worn on both faces and has worn its way into the serpentine pulley.... The collar on the crankshaft is worn a bit but not to badly, I think this is the drive to the oil pump. The keyways are worn on the pullys and the crank, only on the driven side which still leaves me a datum on the pully and the crank. the woodruff keys are very worn to say the least!!!

So what do I do..... Do I fit the parts back as is, fill with chemical metal and hpoe for the best, the car has "only" 70 thousand on the clock and I like the car, so this is probobly not the answer. or do I mig weld the faces of the pullys and the missing (worn) part of the keyway and re machine it? And lastly do I remove the crank and mig weld and machine new woodruff key slots? If the latter I would mill a long slot as opposed to the small half round keyways currently employed.

Its a vast ammount of work removing the crankshaft etc, what do you think? Also is the spacer that fits on the crank supposed to move outwards and do you think I will have a damaged oil pump?
Also as my mood wasent great while discovering the extent of the problem, I have removed the timing belt without making suitable marks on the pullys, so I will nead to time the engine (but hopfully not the pump) Does anyone have the page of a WSM covering this?
Sorry for all the questions!!!! I would like to get this sorted. Thanks for any hot tips etc!!

Edit, are all the 1.9 pullys the same? IE can I use the pulleys of a 306 Diesel or the like, to save me some work?

Regards
Angus

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 19 Mar 2007, 18:41

Yes you should find all 1.9D variants of same year range with same parts on PSA's.
Especially the aux belt crank pulley is a costly item, the other bits are not worth sourcing second hand.

http://www.citroen-pr.net/catalogues/il ... 21075A.gif
04 - 0515 G3 - CRANK PULLEY (approx £110)
- TURBO DIESEL XUD9TE AND EEC 95 DEPOLL (ENGINE
07 - 0513 73 - TIMING PINION (approx £12)
- TURBO DIESEL XUD9TE AND EEC 95 DEPOLL (ENGINE)
74 - 6976 06 - CRANKSHAFT KEY (approx £0.5)

Post by **CitroJim** » 19 Mar 2007, 18:43

Hi Angus and welcome to the forum

Not as bad as it first looks. Get yourself a new lower timing sprocket and crank pulley from a scrapyard. The timing sprockets are common across all XUD engines and the pulley is fairly common too. Ensure that it has the same diamater and the same number of belt grooves and you'll be OK.

The Woodruff keys don't transmit torque. They're purely for location so you can make up some new custom ones using a lump of steel and a file. A bit tedious but less so than swapping a crank! All power is trasmitted through friction between the crank pulley, timing sprocket and the crank shoulder register, hence why the crank bolt has to be tight. I'd replace the crank bolt too.

On timing, line up the cam sprocket and pump sprocket and insert the timing pins (8mm bolts). The crank (flywheel) index hole is found in a boss behind the starter motor on the block. Very difficult to get at but it is there. When in time the crank woodruff key is at about 7 o'clock. Take very great care if you think the timing is well out now as it is very easy to kiss pistons and valves. Stop if you feel resistance and I'd remove the glowplugs so you dont confuse compression with valves and pistons kissing. Hopefully, although you did not make marks, it is not far out if you have not rotated the crank very far since sliping off the belt.

A good way of finding the flywheel timing hole is to use a bit of scrap copper brake pipe to act as a probe. Squint behind the starter motor and you'll see a small boss with a hole in it. Slip the pipe in and carefully rock the crank back and forward a few degrees until the pipe slips further in and the crank locks.

You'll have no worries with that spacer if the oil pressue was OK before this happened. I think it is normal for it to be able to slide.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Angus · Post by **Angus** » 19 Mar 2007, 19:23

AndersDK wrote:Yes you should find all 1.9D variants of same year range with same parts on PSA's.
Especially the aux belt crank pulley is a costly item, the other bits are not worth sourcing second hand.

http://www.citroen-pr.net/catalogues/il ... 21075A.gif
04 - 0515 G3 - CRANK PULLEY (approx £110)
- TURBO DIESEL XUD9TE AND EEC 95 DEPOLL (ENGINE
07 - 0513 73 - TIMING PINION (approx £12)
- TURBO DIESEL XUD9TE AND EEC 95 DEPOLL (ENGINE)
74 - 6976 06 - CRANKSHAFT KEY (approx £0.5)

Thanks very much, it all looks very clear and not as bad as first anticipated!! one question is part 10 on the drawing a spacer or is it the oil seal? if its a spacer I should be able to pull it out and replace it? Mine only moves avout 10mm forward then stops, I think it could be binding on the not to smooth crankshaft?

It will be a scrapyard for part 04, but the rest is cheap enough to get new.

Thanks once again. Regards Angus

Angus · Post by **Angus** » 19 Mar 2007, 19:31

citrojim wrote:Hi Angus and welcome to the forum

Not as bad as it first looks. Get yourself a new lower timing sprocket and crank pulley from a scrapyard. The timing sprockets are common across all XUD engines and the pulley is fairly common too. Ensure that it has the same diamater and the same number of belt grooves and you'll be OK.

The Woodruff keys don't transmit torque. They're purely for location so you can make up some new custom ones using a lump of steel and a file. A bit tedious but less so than swapping a crank! All power is trasmitted through friction between the crank pulley, timing sprocket and the crank shoulder register, hence why the crank bolt has to be tight. I'd replace the crank bolt too.

On timing, line up the cam sprocket and pump sprocket and insert the timing pins (8mm bolts). The crank (flywheel) index hole is found in a boss behind the starter motor on the block. Very difficult to get at but it is there. When in time the crank woodruff key is at about 7 o'clock. Take very great care if you think the timing is well out now as it is very easy to kiss pistons and valves. Stop if you feel resistance and I'd remove the glowplugs so you dont confuse compression with valves and pistons kissing. Hopefully, although you did not make marks, it is not far out if you have not rotated the crank very far since sliping off the belt.

A good way of finding the flywheel timing hole is to use a bit of scrap copper brake pipe to act as a probe. Squint behind the starter motor and you'll see a small boss with a hole in it. Slip the pipe in and carefully rock the crank back and forward a few degrees until the pipe slips further in and the crank locks.

You'll have no worries with that spacer if the oil pressue was OK before this happened. I think it is normal for it to be able to slide.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks, great info. I feel a lot better now and will give it a go over the next few days..... I dont think I have any valve damage, I did a compression test on it and although it was not with the correct gauge or even the correct fitting, I seam to remember it went of the scale at somewhere over 450psi.

Is this a common fault with the 1.9 Diesel engine?

I will keep you updated as to progress! I wish I had found this site 9months ago!!!! Looking on the bright side, I am glad I havent had my pump recond, as that was next on the list!!! You wouldnt believe all the things I have tried to fix this!!!!!

Regards
Angus

Post by **CitroJim** » 19 Mar 2007, 20:05

Angus wrote:
Is this a common fault with the 1.9 Diesel engine?

I don't believe so Angus. I've only known Lolingram have tis problem before. It can only be caused by poor workmanship when the cambelt was last changed by way of incorrect tightening of the crank bolt. In fact I believe the opposite is a more common problem where people err on the side of caution and do the bolt up so tight that it is the very devil to shift next time. Sometimes to the extent that it shears or bends.

The bolt should strictly have a smear of threadlock on it but do't overdo it and use a sort that will break next time!

Your compressions look good Angus! I'm not sure how accuraate this is as a leakdown test is normally conducted on a diesel which involves pressurising a cylinder and determining how long a given pressure will hold.

Generally, the 1.9TD is a long lasting and reliable engine that with good, routine maintenance will see over 250K no problem at all. The secret to a long life is to change the oil regularly, change the cambelt regularly and change the coolant yearly and use a 50/50 mix. They hate overheating so the whole cooling system must be kept in top condition. Expect to change the head gasket at between about 100 and 150K. Failure at this mileage is normal.

The XUD engines are legendary. A classic engine if ever there was one! The very similar XU petrol engine family are pretty good too...

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 19 Mar 2007, 20:33

Item 10 : 0326.22 CRANKSHAFT BEARING SEAL approx £9
It would appear to be the standard XU engine crank axle seal timing end.

Its fitted flush faced in the cover plate 11 (to clear the pinion 7 backside) and seals against the protruding collar of sprocket 8. The seal does not hold any real oil pressure. Its intended to hold back oil/vapour from the usual (low) sump pressure.

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 20 Mar 2007, 15:49

Hi Angus: see my reposte of today under 'XUD bottom pulley' - same problem as you know.

Sees: http://www.topcorp1.com/swing/top.html

My solution:

Get a relacement damperpulley and timing pinion from the breakers - mine cost around £50 inc. postage to France. Also change the timing belt. If you look at ther pics I posted on the URL in my post, you will see that a new oversize Woodruff key is required to suit the now enlarged slot in the crankshaft. Also make thgis long enough so that it connects both the timing pinion and engine pulley, which will make for a strong permanent repair.

Not forgetting tho pop a new oil seal in, re-assemble the engine damper/pulley, using Lockite #638. In the event that you may need to remove either pulley, heating with a blow torch will destroy the Locktite.

Only other solution is a strip and crank change. Locktit #638 has never yey let me down - don't forget to degrease everything first with cellulose thinners or acetone.

Good luck!

Angus · Post by **Angus** » 20 Mar 2007, 19:48

lolingram wrote:Hi Angus: see my reposte of today under 'XUD bottom pulley' - same problem as you know.

Sees: http://www.topcorp1.com/swing/top.html

My solution:

Get a relacement damperpulley and timing pinion from the breakers - mine cost around £50 inc. postage to France. Also change the timing belt. If you look at ther pics I posted on the URL in my post, you will see that a new oversize Woodruff key is required to suit the now enlarged slot in the crankshaft. Also make thgis long enough so that it connects both the timing pinion and engine pulley, which will make for a strong permanent repair.

Not forgetting tho pop a new oil seal in, re-assemble the engine damper/pulley, using Lockite #638. In the event that you may need to remove either pulley, heating with a blow torch will destroy the Locktite.

Only other solution is a strip and crank change. Locktit #638 has never yey let me down - don't forget to degrease everything first with cellulose thinners or acetone.

Good luck!

Thanks for posting up the pictures, its given me a bit of confidence, your bespoke key looks good! I have sourced the required pulleys from the local scrap yard today, removed from a Xantia, but identical to the Xsara bits. Tomorrow I will get a new oil seal and new bolt and some locktite and have a go at filing up a key. As is the way with these things I am taking the opportunity to change some of the engine mountings and a few other worn out bits and bobs along the way. I will update as to how I get on. I didn’t check the dates of your postings, so assumed this had all happened to you sometime in the past!!! My cambelt was changed by a “professional” mechanic, one who presumably doesn’t own an impact gun!!

Thanks again Angus

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 20 Mar 2007, 23:14

Angus,

This is actually ongoing simply because I am also doing other repairs. However, it has all gone together just fine. The Haynes manual says to tighten the M14x1.5 bolt to 40NM, and then a further 60º. This is pretty damn tight... as for women mechanics/dogbreeders - you'd better believe it':!:'

DO use a new bolt which is pretreated with locking compound, as the fact of running loose will have worn (yes!) the threads, and you risk the threads stripping....

thanks for posting up the pictures, its given me a bit of confidence, your bespoke key looks good!

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 31 Mar 2007, 17:44

Just to advise that the damaged crank pulley and keyway on our Xantia XUD has been repaired as previously reported, and it all runs perfectly. The secondhand pulley and timing pinion did a first class job; at the same time the oil seal and both belts were replaced.

The pinion/pulley/key and keyway re-assembled with the addition of Locktite #638, and a new bolt.

Hope that you have achieved success also.

Angus wrote:
Thanks for posting up the pictures, its given me a bit of confidence, your bespoke key looks good! I have sourced the required pulleys from the local scrap yard today, removed from a Xantia, but identical to the Xsara bits. Tomorrow I will get a new oil seal and new bolt and some locktite and have a go at filing up a key

Angus · Post by **Angus** » 31 Mar 2007, 17:51

lolingram wrote:Just to advise that the damaged crank pulley and keyway on our Xantia XUD has been repaired as previously reported, and it all runs perfectly. The secondhand pulley and timing pinion did a first class job; at the same time the oil seal and both belts were replaced.

The pinion/pulley/key and keyway re-assembled with the addition of Locktite #638, and a new bolt.

Hope that you have achieved success also.

Hi, Thanks, I have made a new key and have the thing dry assembled, it seems OK, there is the smallest ammount of movement, but I will use locktite on the assembly. Its taken a bit longer to get this far than I had hoped, the manufacture of a suitable key has taken a few attempts!
I am hopfully going to reassemble it tommorow and fit a new belt.
Thanks for all your help over this, its been invaluable!!!!
Best regards Angus

lolingram · Post by **lolingram** » 31 Mar 2007, 18:05

Well done Angus.

A small amount of play dry is of no consequence - the Locktite will easily take care of this.

Haynes says to tighten the pulley to 40NM, and a futher 60º of rotation. This should be adhered to - the new bolt is already treated with thread lock as standard.

It is OK to lock the flywheel with the normal locking pin in the hole behind the starter, as you are tightening with gently applied force, there is no danger of the pin being sheared.

Hi, Thanks, I have made a new key and have the thing dry assembled, it seems OK, there is the smallest ammount of movement, but I will use locktite on the assembly. Its taken a bit longer to get this far than I had hoped, the manufacture of a suitable key has taken a few attempts!
I am hopfully going to reassemble it tommorow and fit a new belt.
Thanks for all your help over this, its been invaluable!!!!
Best regards Angus

Angus · Post by **Angus** » 31 Mar 2007, 18:29

Cheers, Its tempting to do the nut up with an air gun, but I guess over tight to the point of stripping the threads will be just as bad as to loose. I think touch wood once this has been repaired it should not happen again.

I am lookin forward to getting my car back up and running!!!

I will post up a reply to let you know how I get on tomorow!

Angus

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 01 Apr 2007, 07:56

As a matter of interest the older Haynes gives an alternative torque for the pulley bolt as 111 lb ft or 150 Nm. The primary figure is the same 40 Nm + 60 degrees.