Mystery BX problems - a looong story

[alan s]

I have a family friend with a 90 model BX TZi auto that she bought around 3 years ago with 80K klms on the speedo.
It now has around 160K on it and has been a good car all round until she takes it to her local "specialist" who is an old plonker who should have retired a decade ago, but instead, he keeps on stuffing around and I get the impression that he seems to do things that causes her to have to go back for more work and this is an ongoing saga.
Latest is that he fitted a cambelt for her. The job went like this:- Fit cambelt charge out job, customer goes back concerned about the noise; he has the car for a day or so and returns it telling her it's all fixed. A few days later she returns it with the same noise, he has it again and when returned, he tells her he has replaced the tensioner. A few days later, she again returns and he has it again, this time claiming to have fitted a water pump.
Again she returns, this time upon completion, being told the cambelt was incompatable and a new belt was fitted. Next trip he claimed the genuine pump he had fitted was faulty so he fitted a non genuine which he charged an extra A$60 for it.
As the noise was still there, he suggested she sees if she can see a car she might like, get the engine hot on the BX and trade it in. So far, in excess of $1500 has been spent on what originally was supposed to be a cambelt change for which he quoted around A$300 because he gives this great tale whenever he has the car there always blaming parts, or whatever comes to mind and another bill is presented.
The last time she had it there, he told her he had "adjusted the timing" which on a Tri I would imagine would be no mean feat.
My problem is that I am now saddled with the job of sorting this ****ing mess, so see if anyone can make some suggestions.

Noise: When cold, there is fast tapping knocking noise that is too fast to be a con rod bearing; sounds more like something rotating. It seems to eminate from cylinders 3 or 4 and comes from partway down. Cannot be heard via a stethoscope and is constant with the pulsing of the fuel injectors. He had stuffed around with the mixture adjustment as well as the TPS and after I readjusted these close to where they should be, the rattle almost disappeared. During his stuffing around, he finished with the idle dropping back to around 400 rpm on decelleration if the engine was revved. The noise is most noticeable on acceleration from idle to around 1200 but for only a ciouple of seconds; it's not a constant.
The plugs were dry and showed all the signs of being healthy if not slightly lean on the mixture. I cleaned and refitted them.
There seems to be a slight hesitation on acceleration and the performance id "doughy" to say the least. Compared to my Tri - 122 which has similar mechanicals and is also auto, it wouldn't hold a candle to it. It just feels like an old carby distributor car that is retarded to buggery.
The auto transmission had around 1 litre+ too much ATF in it as it was about an inch above the max mark on the dipstick and draining and refilling to the correct level helped the performance and gearchanges a bit, but still in my estimation, it is still only going at around 80% of what it should.

Any suggestions (if you haven't been bored and fallen asleep reading this long winded post)

All or any suggestions gratefully accepted as she needs to be heading off home within 48 hours and I would like to get it sorted as she has 400 klms to go to get there.



Alan S

[jeremy]

I take it he has got the cambelt on correctly and not one tooth out?

I don't know what the noise is but there is the oil pump chain at the belt end of the engine and if its running roughly I suppose this might flap and make a noise. I assume the front pulley nut is tight and that the work claimed to be done has been done and done properly.

Otherwise - has he seriously overrevved it and damaged a valve? - a compression test would show this - and I'd have thought the management system would have prevented this happening in the first place.

I suppose usual favorites like metering the HT leads are worth a go - the fault may have been there but not really noticed before - as well as checking injector wiring and injector connection plugs - as well as injector seals - (I'm not familiar with them but think they are 'O' rings - and obviously rather old now. Some mechanics tend to pull everything in site and a pull may have broken a previously sealing ring)

You will have no doubt have checked all the engine venting system pipework - which again will be rather old by now - How I love this aspect of diesels! (EDIT for clarity - vent hoses on diesels don't affect them)

[slim123]

I too would check the cambelt again.

I would say that the crank to valve timing is fine, othewise it would have self distructed by now as only 1 tooth out can do this.

If the pump timing is out then you could have a diesel knock. This is fuel bieng injected at the wrong time, it can sound like a big end bearing, realy loud!

I have known people to strip an engine looking for a loud knock only to find it being a diesel knock.

Regards
Slim

[slim123]

Just had a second read

Its a petrol aint it,

Ignore the diesel knock bits, but I would still be checking the whole cambelt timing.

Also as said before, the HT leads? Check it in the dark, and look for a jumping spark, this too can make a big noise, Had it once on an old Vauxhall Viva, only found the noise late one night when I had the bonnet up in the dark.

Regards
Slim

[AndersDK]

Quick check :
Remove aux belts - to exclude rattly/noisy bearings in hydpump, generator & ACcomp.

Defo pin the cambelt sprockets to rest your mind !

Whats the manifold air pressure reading method on this engne ? Either a vacuum sensor or an airflow sensor. Check it out. Will make the engine dead like an old Ford Escrot if no function.

[alan s]

Just to clarify a couple of points.
The noise seems to come from the opposite end of the engine to the cambelt and pulleys. My first thought was a harmonic balance on the way out or a loose crank pulley. Both seem OK upon inspection.
The EFi system is the one using the AFM very similar to a BX16V system.
The noise seems to come from about halway up the block between cy;inders 3 & 4 and is barely audible through a stethoscope, yet can be heard by the naked ear.
Just started this morning and about the only noise would have to be the hydraulic pump; the other was still there, but barely audible, so I seem to be getting to it, but it's now more in the background.
My suspicion about the cambelt fitment was oerhaps he may have got it wrong, started the engine or more likely turned it over on the starter, had a valve kiss a piston but stopped turning as soon as it did but possibly not before it did a small amount of damage to the valve stem and that this may have been the problem, but as there is no noise at the top end of the motor, I've discounted that theory.


Alan S

[Clogzz]

an old plonker who should have retired a decade ago

Not Klaus K*****g I hope ?
My cam belt is over 5 years old with 70,000 km and the anti-sink sphere must be dodgy.
Don’t feel like dabbling in that, so will still need him.

[alan s]

an old plonker who should have retired a decade ago

Not Klaus K*****g I hope ?
My cam belt is over 5 years old with 70,000 km and the anti-sink sphere must be dodgy.
Don’t feel like dabbling in that, so will still need him.

Good luck; you nailed him in one!!

I have never seen a car converted from being absolutely faultless mechanically to one where the owner has to ring me before she leaves and give progress reports because it has become such a worry to use.
As you know, I used to have a bit of confidence in his work, but he seems to have lost the plot in recent times.
I struck another just recently where he had charged a guy around $5000 to do a 16V engine up that had snapped a cambelt because "it had bent all 16 valves and damaged a couple of pistons" which in itself is a mind boggling feat. When he discvered that the same guy had also done a cambelt change on it 2 years earlier, he sold the car.
I'd suggest you see Dave Tranter at Transmec at Burleigh/Miami. He's a Pug/Reno specialist who can handle these but gets the eebies about hydraulics.
Got a great reputation, charges are reasonable and does good work. I can recommend him because I used to work with him at the Pug/Ren dealership at Mermaid Beach many moons ago.


Alan S

[Clogzz]

How’s the clean-up after Klaus going since ?

When I was in there, he had what I think was a white BX16V, good-looking car that he said needed major work that the owner was to decide on yet.
I understood that to mean that the owner was saving to pay for the repair.
I found it strange that such a car would be up for major work, so did he have a ‘mishap’ with it ?
He replaced my rear spheres, using the big trolley jack, an 18-inch sphere tool, a piece of cardboard to lie on, and the bottom half of an old 20-litre oil drum to catch the spill.
In jobs over the years, I have often suggested to list on the job cards the tools we had used, instead or writing what we did or put into the customers' sets or machines, but all I ever got for my troubles were green smiles.
Contrary to all the advice we read on the forum, he put the seals onto the threads, and then screwed the spheres in.
He also slightly tightened the spheres with the tool, about 1/8th of a turn, and it’s been good this far.
I was asking about height correctors, and he was quick to say that it was best not to touch them.
I may still use him for spheres or such work.
I see where Transmec is, quite handy actually, and had them in mind for the next occasion.
Best would be to get some solid props and do all that myself, instead of getting wobbly knees just at the thought of an 8 valve cam belt without even looking.

[alan s]

It's all finished.

I ended up having to play around resetting TPS and mixture screws, then drained almsot 3.5 litres of ATF from the transmission and refilled it with 2; wasn't all that impressed with the colour of the ATF that was supplied by the owner & supposedly changed only about 2 months back (draw your own conclusions on that one), cleaned plugs, changed the filter and oil and coolant, bled the system and it's now back down at Eleanora.
It lost the knock which I still am unsure of but suspect detonation and overfilled auto as the causes.
Performance seemed to brighten up after all that too. Still not 100% but probably around 90+% of what I would expect.
That white 16V he had; did it have a sunroof? If not then it's possibly the one that belonged to the guy at Surfers who posted on AF about having him drill holes out in the bore holes of his spheres.
He's the one who had him rebuild it after it had supposedly bent all 16 Valves when a cambelt broke, so if it's done it again, he's got the hat trick in as many years.

The 8 valve cambelt isn't all that bad a job providing you have an engine crane to swing it around on I find, but I also have mobility problems which don't help.
I reckon a good experienced mechanic would do one in 2 hours, mugs like us doing them occasionally, possibly 4 hours would eat it. I can't say exactly how long it took me as I did a few other jobs at the same time.


Alan S

[Clogzz]

Hi Alan,

Congratulations for another good outcome that a ‘specialist’ couldn’t achieve.

The white BX didn’t have a sunroof from what I can recall, so may well be the one you’re referring to.
I only saw it in there once in December of 2005, not since, as I’ve only been there once back then.
Haven’t had cause to return there or go anywhere else since, as the car’s only needed fluid and filter changes since.

I’m not equipped to move the engine to change the cam belt, so that will become Dave Tranter’s turn.
The original belt got replaced at about 100,000 km by Ian Robinson Motors in Sydney, in less than 3 hours.
They also did the rego ticket the next day, using another car.
All up, $300 in a brown envelope.

Regards,
Terry.

[Mandrake]

I’m not equipped to move the engine to change the cam belt, so that will become Dave Tranter’s turn.
The original belt got replaced at about 100,000 km by Ian Robinson Motors in Sydney, in less than 3 hours.

Hi Terry,

You don't need to move the engine to change the cam belt.... we did both mine and my Dad's (both 2.0i petrol like yours) without any need to move the engine, we also didn't remove the top engine mounting, as some people suggest. (It doesn't really improve access, apart from giving slightly wider spanner swinging arcs for a couple of bolts, but if you have a ratchet spanner or you're patient it doesn't really matter)

A lot of the access for doing the job is from underneath the right wheel arch, so we had the car well up in the air at the front with the right wheel and wheel arch covers removed...

The first one we did (not having done a Xantia cambelt before) took a couple of days, but I also had other things out at the same time like the Hydraulic pump (for new seals) and probably the single biggest slow down was the fact that the water pump needed replacing and the old gasket material was an absolute b*****d to get off... I ended up having to patiently scrape it off with a chisel, probably an hours work just in scraping the face clean so the new gasket would seal properly.

On the second car it didn't need a water pump and we were doing strictly the cam belt and we had it done in just over 3 hours including a few stops for aching backs and cups of tea

While its not an easy job, once I'd done one its not nearly as hard as I expected.... the snags that I encountered were:

a) difficulty cleaning up the face of the water pump flange due to the horrible burnt on original gasket material (the new gasket is metal, so they must have learnt from that...)

b) difficultly obtaining/making a tool to tension the tensioner pulley - we ended up getting a piece of square key steel (8mm from memory) and welding a short length of it into a 3/8" socket, and that did a good job. (And will be sitting in the toolbox for next time )

c) Getting the belt tension right - initially I set the tension too tight on both cars and had to back it off - the symptom was a whining/whirring noise especially around 1500rpm from the camshaft - looks like the bearings on the camshaft of these engines don't like too much side thrust!

d) Locking the engine for undoing and doing up the crankshaft pulley bolt - relatively easy with two people - one person locking the starter ring gear through the access hole at the top with a giant screwdriver did the trick just fine, but if you're doing the job on your own you'd need some alternative.

Other things to watch out for - the automatic tensioner for the auxillary belt is bolted into an alloy housing, but they've put locktite on the threads, so there is a chance of stripping the threads when removing them

This actually happened to us on Dad's car when the aux belt was off a previous time and we had to drill and tap it up to the next size bolt. Needless to say we didn't put any locktite back on those bolts on either car. (Why they think they need locktite there, I don't know...)

Regards,
Simon

[alan s]

Thanks Simon; you've explained all the reasons in there why I usually swing the engine off the crane to do it. Mainly so I don't have those problems.
The idea isn't that it's impossible to do it without having it on the crane, the idea of the crane is so it's a lot more convenient to do and you can actually see what you're doing instead of woking by braille. I also tend to use a tension wrench as much as I can so I know exactly where I'm at with tensions and this is an almost impossible task with the engine insitu in many cases.
It's a personal thing in many ways, but in my case being a tradesman and having worked a lot on cars involved in competition, I tend to be extremely precise in anything I do mechanically and therefore I prefer to examine the job in detail and rarely if ever rely on just feel. Working around 16V engines also tends to instil this into your character as the example Clogzz and I have mentioned above tends to illustrate.
By the way Terry, that price from Robinson was a bargain. I don't know what Dave charges, but some of the cowboys up Brissy way and further north are much higher.

Alan S

[Clogzz]

undoing the crankshaft pulley, locktite on the threads, the car well up in the air, making a tool to tension the tensioner pulley, welding into a socket, stripping the threads ...

Horror, all the words to frighten me.

Hi Simon and Alan,
And thank you for your posts.

None of these are jobs that I could tackle; you both obviously have workshops, experience, hindsight and confidence to embark on tasks where you’ve got some back-up for when things don’t go according to plan.
What sort of design is it anyway that you have to remove the crankshaft pulley to replace the belt ?
Can’t the belt be slackened enough by loosening the tensioner to remove and replace it ?

My equipment is a garage just wide enough to open the car doors halfway, a ½inch and a 3/8 socket set, an assortment of spanners and screwdrivers, multigrips, hammer and drill, a small bottle jack, a small hydraulic jack and the car’s scissor jack.
The rest of my tools are in a large lunchbox-type plastic container to take to work.
The biggest mechanical job I’ve ever done is changing the clutch on a rear-wheel-drive Holden Belmont 1970.
Looks like I’ll stay with the Bitrons and relays.

At Ian Robinson Motors, Brad Hatcher changed the cam belt through the top only, saying that he didn’t remove the inner cover, and there were no signs that the cover had been touched.
When I told him of moving to the Gold Coast, he told me of Euro Serve and Ian Reddiex of Newstead, as it was then.
From Sydney he didn’t see the difference between the Gold Coast and Brisbane.

Regards,
Terry.

[Mandrake]

undoing the crankshaft pulley, locktite on the threads, the car well up in the air, making a tool to tension the tensioner pulley, welding into a socket, stripping the threads ...

Horror, all the words to frighten me.

Hi Simon and Alan,
And thank you for your posts.

None of these are jobs that I could tackle; you both obviously have workshops, experience, hindsight and confidence to embark on tasks where you’ve got some back-up for when things don’t go according to plan.

Yeah I guess I do have access to a reasonably large array of tools (mostly belonging to my Dad...) and I've done enough jobs on Xantia's now to be fairly confident with them... about the only jobs I wouldn't tackle myself are panel/paint/bodywork (HATE that stuff, and no good at it at all) or any kind of "engine out" work... I did take the engine out of my GS once to do a clutch but modern cars just have so many ancillieries hanging off the engine compared to a GS as to make it a PITA....I'd rather just not go there...

What sort of design is it anyway that you have to remove the crankshaft pulley to replace the belt ?
Can’t the belt be slackened enough by loosening the tensioner to remove and replace it ?

The problem is that the cambelt is BEHIND the auxillary belt, furthermore the outer pulley for the aux belt is outside of the bottom cover, while the cambelt is INSIDE the cover. Yeah, it's a bit of a stupid design, but thats what we have to work with...

At Ian Robinson Motors, Brad Hatcher changed the cam belt through the top only, saying that he didn’t remove the inner cover, and there were no signs that the cover had been touched.

I don't like to be critical of other people, but surely he must be feeding you a line of BS - I don't see how its possible to replace the cambelt without taking the bottom cover off the cambelt - the belt is behind the cover after all!

The auxillary belt has to be removed - the tensioner is accessed through the wheel arch. The crankshaft pulley has to be removed (and is very tight) and is accessed through the wheel arch, both of which would be extremely difficult if not impossible from the top even with the engine tilted over. (Where would you swing the breaker bar to get the crankshaft pulley bolt out ?)

Getting at the bottom bolts for the bottom cambelt cover also wouldn't be possible from the top, tilted engine or not. (Unless you have extra long arms )

Nope, sounds like crazy talk to me... the wheel arch cover is there for a reason....(and if you have good access from both top and bottom it makes it into a relatively easy job)

Regards,
Simon