Xud engine blowing white smoke and lots of it!!!

caveman_si · Post by **caveman_si** » 29 Jan 2007, 22:55

Posted this in the pug section but some of you here might have an idea since its the same XUD as in the xantia

I took my 406 1.9td to the garage today and had the following done- new belts aux and cam, new water pump, new aux belt auto tensioner. Didnt bother to try it myself as I needed the car in a hurry.

I took the car from the garage (supposedly a good reputatble indy) and with in yards started to sound a bit funny, kinda like the sound you get when you leave the little pipe off that connects the fuel pump to the turbo air pipe, but a bit more rattlely.

With in about 500m - 1km i was in traffic it started to sound really bad when ever i gave it any revs ie 2k revs up wards when the turbo kicks in.
Got it home as i only live 1km from the garage probaby about 2km from the garage driving it.

I didnt try to take it back then as i collected the car as the garage was shutting.
After dinner I had a quick look over the car and could see nothing obviously wrong so started it up again, again a little tinny and whiney and then the noise got worse then stopped and big clouds of white smoke that smell like burnt oil started to pour out of the exhaust.

So any one any idea whats gone??? IM guessing the turbo prehaps as theres lots more smoke when i give it revs ?

My next question is this the garages fault? or to be fairer my car went into the garage and was fine no problems at all except needing a new aux auto tensioner and came out like this, is it reasonable to assume that the garage have caused what ever is at fault? Any one any idea how doing belts could cause my issues with it?

DoubleChevron · Post by **DoubleChevron** » 29 Jan 2007, 23:36

They obviously didn't lock the crank/camshaft with the dowels when they fitted the new belt, so it's been re-assembled with the cam timing wrong

seeya,
Shane L.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 30 Jan 2007, 00:14

The white smoke can be caused by either :

1) unburnt diesel fuel, i.e. diesel fuel not ignited. Not to be mistaken as overrich fueling which will produce black smoke. Can be caused by wrong engine timing. But engine pull power should then be noticeable down.

2) engine oil induced into the exhaust, not from the combustion in the cylinders. Evapourated engine oil (from the exhaust heat) produces clouds of white smoke. This can defo be caused by wrong timing which then in turn can press engine oil out the exhaust valve stems.
Wrong timing will however affect the engine pull power as a clear symptom. Especially on a diesel.
Or it can simply be a turbo hotside oilseal failure, in which case pullpower is normal, not affected.

Diagnosis :
Hold a rag against the exhaust pipe, with engine idling, or just sligthly reved to produce the smoke.
Smell the cloth. It would be rather clearly either engine oil or diesel fuel.

caveman_si · Post by **caveman_si** » 30 Jan 2007, 10:41

Had a look at it in the day light and the smoke smells both of diesel and oil and is a light grey. Its also used over a litre of oil since yesterday morning.
And its not making as much noise as it did yesterday. NOw it just sounds liike a really rough engine almost tractor like instead of something that is broken.

The power feels down but not massivly down but it doenst feel like a 1.9td should feels more like a 1.9d

paulbx · Post by **paulbx** » 30 Jan 2007, 10:47

You checked oil level recently?

If a litre down so quickly and power down sound like Turbo issues and engine oil is being sucked into turbo and into combustion process.

The sound maybe your Turbo breaking up. Iv'e seen may posts on here for leaking turbo and the causes. I think you;ll get a response shortly from someone with more experience in that department.

Odd though that it "coincides" with the garage work - did they damage teh turbo somehow?

caveman_si · Post by **caveman_si** » 30 Jan 2007, 11:22

I checked the oil sunday evening and it was fine then just below the top mark. Checked the oil after I had got it home last nite and again this morning to be be doubly sure and they both showed it down to the bottom dipstick mark.
And like I say it was working fine before I took it in and is now a bag of spanners big coincidence if it just happened to disintergrate 200 meters out of the garage after being worked on by them.

KP · Post by KP » 30 Jan 2007, 11:56

Id say its turbo as well

Sounds like the symptoms we had on the 2.1td we bought and new was having dead turbo issues. massively down on power, drinking oil....
Used turbos are easy enough to come by and i wouldnt bother getting yours repaired as at this stage they are often beyond it economically.

It is possible that its not been timed up correctly though or the belt has slipped a little. If it idles like a bag of spanners id ask them to check the timing as its possible they retimed it by moving the IP a smidge at a time and didnt fully tighten the IP back on and as soon as you hit the first bumper in the road or somthing its knocked it outta whack....

caveman_si · Post by **caveman_si** » 30 Jan 2007, 13:07

They have checked the timeing and say everything is spot on and are going to assemble and try running it again to have a futher look.

So it looks like a blown turbo but im waiting for a final verdict from them.
IF it is the turbo is there anything that they could have done cause it while they were changing the belts etc? or is it one of those act of god coincidences that it just happened to fail as i left there garage.

IF it is that, and judging by the symptoms and the claim the timing is fine it probably is, how easy is it to replace ? is it an engine out job or can it be done insitue, assuming i find a replacement turbo. Any idea on 2nd hand turbo costs?

KP · Post by KP » 30 Jan 2007, 14:19

Check ebay. they are £50 upward usually lol

If the turbo is gone im sure it can be done in situ but its not easy unless you have a lift as the easiest way is from under the car

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 30 Jan 2007, 20:22

I'd put my money on it being wrong timing.

If your turbo was ok before the work then why should a trip to the garage have caused a failure ?

A blown turbo wouldn't cause the engine to run/sound rough but poor timing would.

I hate taking my car to a garage for work. Something always goes wrong. I don't trust anyone. I do everything myself if at all possible. That's why it takes so long for things to get done in my house..... ask my wife..she'll tell you all about it !

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 30 Jan 2007, 20:56

If you search though this board you will find that XUD turbo failure is very rare - and is such that its hard to give a good turbo away.

If the turbo is not working or indeed is damaged - the engine will sound normal at idle as the thing won't be pumping at all - and the engine will also run normally.

The turbo can be isolated for exhaust smoke purposes by removing any section between the turbo and the engine. If the engine is ingesting oil through the turbo this pipe will be full of oil. If all was working properly there will still be oil coating the inside of the pipe as the thing breaths its crankcase fumes which inevitably contain oil droplets and fumes.

Unburnt fuel (as opposed to partially burnt) fuel gives clouds of white smoke - like you get if the thing doesn't start first time or you try and start it without the glowplugs. Lubricating oil smoke tends to have a distinctive blue colour.

Its hard to see how a turbo can be damaged during a cambelt change as there is no mechanical connection to anything. The thing won't develop much pressure even if revved to the limiter and so won't be at full speed. (They only develop full pressure when under load at a moderate speed - like up a long hill in 5th).

The oil pump is driven by a chain from a cog behind the toothed cambelt drive pulley - and I believe some are simply sandwiched rather than keyed. (I am not sure on this point) However this pump supplies the whole lubrication system and that is protected by a warning light - which certainly on a BX is wired into the main stop light circuit - ie oil pressure and STOP light will be on.

slim123 · Post by **slim123** » 30 Jan 2007, 23:41

I would say that this sounds like a timing problem.

Cam to crankshaft will most likely be fine, as 1 x tooth out will smash the cam. (I know I've done it!)

But. I would suspect that the pump timing is out, get them to check this, it can be done fairly quickly and without removing too much.

I agree with others, turbo failure is most unlikely.

Regards
Slim.

reblack68 · Post by **reblack68** » 31 Jan 2007, 08:59

I had this problem on a 305 once. The woodruff key escaped when I was fitting the pump pulley and the pump timing became infinitely variable. All the timing marks lined up perfectly because the pulleys were correct in relation to each other.

I wouldn't have thought the pump pulley would be removed for a belt change but you never know.

caveman_si · Post by **caveman_si** » 31 Jan 2007, 10:26

My week gets better and better.

I collected my car last nite. The garage claim the timing and all the bits they fitted is fine. They claim that they cant work out what is wrong but they suspect that the car is suffering from stuck injectors and is now hydraulically locked.
So now the car is really really broke, it drove into the garage yesterday and had to be towed home yesterday because its hydraulically locked and wont turn over.

And the best thing is the garage are still adamant that there is no damage due to them.

So any one got a spare xud engine fit for 406 lying around they dont need??? ()in good working order of course!

sdabel · Post by **sdabel** » 31 Jan 2007, 11:48

I had a similar problem after having the timing belt on my 2.1 TD changed. Ran but was rough and blew smoke and was down on power.

Turned out to be the timing belt being out a notch- apparently easy to do on these engines even if you think you have it all lined up.

Have you considered taking it to a different place?

regards
sean