H.I.D. headlamps and the MOT

FrenchLeave · Post by **FrenchLeave** » 28 Jan 2007, 22:47

I recently fitted a pair of 6000K H.I.D. lights to the dip headlamps of my XM. Although the extra brightness is very welcome I'm not keen on the slightly blue tint of the light that falls on the road. I was considering buying another set, 4300K this time, and swapping the bulbs, then fitting the 6000K's to the main beam.

Problem is, when you switch on these lights there's a bright flash, followed by a 2 -3 second delay with reduced brightness before they flash up to full power.

The MOT Testers Manual gives as a cause for failure: "3a. A headlamp does not operate immediately when selected on dipped beam or on main beam."

What do you think? Does "operate immediately" mean operate immediately on full power or can the startup sequence be considered as operating immediately? And how do Beemers and Mercs manage?

I'd be grateful for your opinions.

Derek

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 30 Jan 2007, 13:10

How hard would it be to pull the HIDs are revert to halogen bulbs for the MOT, putting the Xenons back in afterwards?

FrenchLeave · Post by **FrenchLeave** » 30 Jan 2007, 15:33

Main beam bulbs not too difficult, the dip ones awkward. But would it be necessary? I thought that there might be a forum member with connections in the trade who could give me a definitive answer - apparently not.

rabenson · Post by **rabenson** » 30 Jan 2007, 17:04

I must admit that most of the ones that I've seen have HID dip beams (always on) and use conventional halogen for the mains - maybe for the reasons that you've outlined.

Ron

FrenchLeave · Post by **FrenchLeave** » 30 Jan 2007, 17:37

Thank you Ron, I wonder how the Audies, Beemers etc are going to get on in a couple of years time when they come up for their MOT.

I get the feeling that that particular requirement was framed around single pair headlamps with dim/dip bulbs when it's obvious you would need one or the other on. "A headlamp ........when selected on main or dip beam".

Anyway, I've decided to go ahead. My car's not due its MOT until October, I'll let you know how I get on then.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 30 Jan 2007, 18:06

My thoughts exactly, I fail to see how they can fail a car on that pretext when a large proportion of cars have these lights as standard. I should try posing that to the MOT tester.

p20 · Post by **p20** » 30 Jan 2007, 21:45

Slight hijack. Where did you get the HID kit from/how much?etc?
I know its still expensive, but might be tempted for the xantia.
Any they hard to fit?
Thanks

FrenchLeave · Post by **FrenchLeave** » 31 Jan 2007, 00:11

Hi P20,

I bought them off ebay on a "buy it now" contract. The seller's identity is hu5585 and he's in Hong Kong. He has a virtually 100% record. The 6000K lights I ordered arrived five days after order although if you want 4300K he told me he has to order them from the factory with a seven day delay.

They are well packaged and look good quality, made in China - which may well mean Hong Kong. Have a year's guarantee and certainly do the business. The price is £82 with free delivery - I don't think you can get cheaper.

The only problem I had in fitting was finding somewhere to put the two ballasts; they come with two pieces of double sided sticky material each about the size of the ballast bases, plus an assortment of nuts and bolts, cable ties etc.. My problem was finding somewhere to put them where I could get to the other side to do up the nuts. Having eventally found two places I then discovered that the sticky stuff has so much holding power that the bolts are superfluous! I found it best to remove the headlamps, it makes fitting the bulbs easier. You also have to drill a 23mm hole in the black plastic rear cover for the wiring to go through - I only had a 25mm hole saw but that made fitting the rubber closing grommet easier.

My recommendation would be to go for it.

Derek

Ross_K · Post by **Ross_K** » 31 Jan 2007, 02:35

Wouldn't a wiring upgrade, some relays and a set of Osram silverstars do more for your lighting than some made-in-china HID kit. It would definitely cost a lot less.

An even more important question is: Have you had the light output checked with the correct equipment to ensure you aren't going to dazzle other drivers? Or are you just gonna wing it and hope you don't blind somebody?

FrenchLeave wrote:And how do Beemers and Mercs manage?

Perhaps the wiring, ballasts and everything else to do with lighting are designed from scratch to work correctly and efficiently? Their lighting will be type-approved as well, unlike yours.

This article gives a good technical explanation of why you shouldn't bother retro fitting HID:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech ... sions.html

The most dangerous part of the attempt to "retrofit" Xenon headlamps is that sometimes you get a deceptive and illusory "improvement" in the performance of the headlamp. The performance of the headlamp is perceived to be "better" because of the much higher level of foreground lighting (on the road immediately in front of the car). However, the beam patterns produced by this kind of "conversion" virtually always give less distance light, and often an alarming lack of light where there's meant to be a relative maximum in light intensity. The result is the illusion that you can see better than you actually can, and that's not safe.

It's tricky to judge headlamp beam performance without a lot of knowledge, a lot of training and a lot of special equipment, because subjective perceptions are very misleading. Having a lot of strong light in the foreground, that is on the road close to the car and out to the sides, is very comforting and reliably produces a strong impression of "good headlights". The problem is that not only is foreground lighting of decidedly secondary importance when travelling much above 30 mph, but having a very strong pool of light close to the car causes your pupils to close down, worsening your distance vision...all the while giving you this false sense of security. This is to say nothing of the massive amounts of glare to other road users and backdazzle to you, the driver, that results from these "retrofits".

stevenlizuk · Post by **stevenlizuk** » 31 Jan 2007, 10:11

The problem that you are having with the bulbs is that the Merc and BMW bulbs have a more effective ballast on them and faster heating bulbs, so the bulbs get up to full brightness without an appreciable delay. How much did you pay for the upgrade?

A new bulb for my mountain bike light retails for £100 (yes just the bulb). Replacement HID bulbs and ballast kits for cars fitted with these retail for hundreds of pounds each. Did the seller specifically say the kits were road legal as many of these things aren't.

Cheers

Steve

Post by **Peter.N.** » 31 Jan 2007, 11:13

They are offering Bosch units on there for very much the same price.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 31 Jan 2007, 12:36

A lot of cars do have the Xenon (HID) low and halogen high beams, the C5 has that setup.... If a car has bi-xenon headlights, that indicates that they have HID low and high beams, generally if it doesn't say bi-xenon, it isn't bi-xenon.

As for switching from dipped to full beam, some of the systems I've seen have a single bulb and use a mechanism to adjust the beam pattern, either moving the bulb, shuttering or using the beam leveling mechanism.

Legallity wise, all lights are supposed to have an 'E' mark for their type approval.... HID bulbs could in theory get that mark for retrofit, but in practice they simply don't have it.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 31 Jan 2007, 13:43

i was just reading an article by HELLA in MOTOR MECHANIC trade mag about this very thing,they say these do not conform to the legal requirement,as the intensity of the light output alters the beam,so causes glair to other road users
regards malcolm

kenhall1202 · Post by **kenhall1202** » 31 Jan 2007, 14:15

Experience so far of Chinese 6000K HID kit (alleged Hella technology??!!) fitted to XM2.1TD since Christmas 2006.
Bought the kit off eBay for £75 delivered (seller flashplus). I was thoroughly fed up with the poor/dangerous XM dipped beam performance on xenon conventional bulbs (my ZX is miles better!) and after reading Julian Marsh's article on Citroenet re an XM conversion I decided to take the plunge. Fitting was straightforward using existing wiring and no need to remove lamp units. Had to enlarge hole slightly in bulb holder to get HID bulbs in.Relay loom option was shown in eBay ad but not included. Plus points are big increase in useful light output, which is a bright white with no prominent blueness. No obvious glare is present and I do not get flashed by oncoming traffic on my 40 mile trip to work on the Cumbrian back roads. Main minus point is being unable to receive weak FM radio signals due to some RF interference coming from the HID units. Supplier did not reply to requests for advice. My conclusion is that the XM dipped beam unit is well suited to a HID conversion because of its unique design, something which cannot be said for every lamp design where increased glare can be a big problem. I will wait to see how durable they are - a 14 month 'guarantee' was given. Regarding the MOT I will probably chicken out and return the lights temporarily back to standard unless I hear something positive.
Regards Ken Hall

FrenchLeave · Post by **FrenchLeave** » 31 Jan 2007, 16:55

Hi Ross-K,

My XM already has individual relays for each light and I had already fitted Osram Silver Stars a year ago. They were certainly better than the standard range of bulbs and I have praised them before on this forum.

My decision to try H.I.D was the result of an unpleasant drive to Skegness recently in the rain, in the dark and against a stream of rush hour traffic. Going through the twisty bits I found difficulty in picking up anything on my side of the road.

As far as headlamp aim is concerned, I first lined up my car 2m from my garage doors, dip beam lights on and engine running. I then traced the outline of each light pool on the garage door in chalk. I also marked the position of the front wheels on the driveway. After fitting the H.I.D. units I placed the car in exactly the same position and conditions. The light pools were in the same positions on the garage doors, there was however less obvious upward scatter - possibly because the arc is shorter than the length of a filament, so more of a point source.

In use on the back roads the main beam light looked yellow against the H.I.Ds and was noticeably duller. I was not flashed at by any oncoming vehicles when on dipped beam.

As KenHall 1202 said, the Xm has a notoriously bad dipped beam performance because of its complex surface headlamps (doesn't the Xantia have the same setup?), so is a candidate for any improvement going.

The box carries the legend "e-mark E24 021190 ISO 9001:2000".

It is of no concern to me whether you or anyone else keeps your existing arrangements, changes them, or reverts to acetylene, I'm not trying to sell the things, I simply tried to give as honest and full an answer as I could to a specific series of questions from a forum member.