Steering, or none as the case may be

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citroenxm
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Steering, or none as the case may be

Post by citroenxm »

Hi All

A follow up to my older post "That sinking feeling.." (http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... highlight=) a while ago, I still have not fitted a known working Anti Sink unit..

However, I have now noticed a few more things.

When I start the car after the rear has sunk itdoes a kind of small jump at the rear and then rises... but I have now also noticed it goes up to height, then falls a little, then up a little again... I also have found that it does NOT like any weight in the back. I had my tools in the rear, and also my parents, and it did NOT want to get up atall, and stayed down!

Almost as though it cannot get any pressure into the rear! Can this all still be related to a faulty anti sink system??

SECONDLY: I am now experiencing PAS problems. What seems to be happening the PAS will work fine then over a course of a week or two it will play up. What its dooing, driving in straight ahead steering is SOLID and I cannot turn the wheel, then suddenly to assists and then the car is veering across the road, slightly !! and the steering is VERY heavy, then after a week or so its ok again and works lovly!!

I HAVE bled the system, I've opend the bleed screw and ran the engine for ten mins, also turned the steering lock to lock to try and bleed any air from the PAS ram, it helps for a bit but the PAS soon goes again..

CAR: Xantia 1.9 TD VSX 1995 M reg, 6+2 Outlet pump (IE: NO Flow divider, two HP outlet pipes)

Any thought on this one guys??

Thanks in advance

citroenxm
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
slim123
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Post by slim123 »

Hi.

First the "jump" This is a common problem with the XM hydractive 2 and the Xantia VSX, I have never quite got to the bottem of, but I firmly belive that the problem lies in a sticky spool inside the rear firmness regulator What happens here is that when you start up, the fluid feeds to the 2 x rear suspension cylinders and so the car lifts, then as the pressure builds the sticky spool frees off and the fluid from the 2 x rear cylinders / spheres gets fed back to the center sphere and hence the car takes a dive at the back. The height corrector senses that the car is now too low and feeds fluid to lift it back up again.

This in itself is not allways seen as a problem as it usualy only happens on first start up after being left overnight or longer.

Next, the rear height correctors on the Xantia are the achilles heel of the car, the linkages rust up and seize and the throttling valve inside has been changed for a plastic bush arrangement with holes so small they could get blocked by the tinyest bit of muck.

Finally, the power steering does need to have the pump running flat out all the time, the 2 x piston (front portion) of the pump supplies pressure to the regulator, then off to the suspension and the braking system. The 6 x piston (rear portion) feeds the power steering only, this supplys full flow with the pressure at 150- constant, any less and the steering (or you) will suffer. Usually if the pump is getting weak then it will show up as intermittent heavy steering, especialy in the morning when the engine is cold.
LHM like all oils is slightly thicker when cold, as the engine warms up so does the LHM, a weak pump cannot cope so well when the fluid is cold.

Of course it also goes without saying, check the LHM if it's old, change it, if it's dirty, Flush it.

To check the LHM, get yourself 2 x clean jam jars, put some new LHM in one and take some out of your car to put in the other one. Place both jars over a sheet of newspaper, you will be able to read the print through the new, can you read it through yours.

Give Pleiades a call, I would suggest getting friendly in this direction would benifit you!!!

Regards
Slim
alan s
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Post by alan s »

I take it you have checked the condition and adjustment on the pump belt have you?
A slipping belt can give a sudden and unexplained loss of PAS. Another trap is also that quite often, a pump belt is an "A" section.
Get a counter jockey at a parts place with no knowledge of belt sizes and shapes and he will supply an M in place of it. An M series doesn't have the depth of the A (in cross section) and can slip without being noticed and can wear aout within minutes once it hits its critical level.


Alan S
RIP Sept 19th 2008.

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Post by Peter.N. »

I go with Alan, practically all steering problems I have experienced have been due to the hydraulic pump belt slipping.
slim123
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Post by slim123 »

The pump on all Xantia's will have a milti "V" belt, These belts are not prone to slipping as they have a very wide surface area. In fact the whole idea of using these belts is that they can be run very succesfully at a lower tension.

There is more damage done to the front bush and seal on the Xantia pump by running it too tight. Strip out the front of a Xantia pump and you will find no expensive bearings, just a cheap teflon coated bush, run the belt to tight and you will wear this away!!

But of course check the tension, it costs nuffin, but I doubt it will be the route of evill.

And of course as said before, Check the fluid, you will be suprised at how many problems will go away with the dirty LHM.

Regards
Slim
Peter.N.
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Post by Peter.N. »

I stand corrected! :oops: My experience has been with XMs, BXs and CXs, most of which have had a 'v' belt.
slim123
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Post by slim123 »

Also Peter, The 5 cylinder pumps as fitted to the CX, BX and all but the last of the XM's has a massive bearing benind the pulley, this contains 5 x 1/2 inch balls, overtightening will not damage it. Infact as you well know, these have to be run murder tight to prevent slippage.

A common mistake with Xantia owners who have owned a BX etc, is to treat the belt and pump the same, therefore ruining the teflon bush and overheating the seal, then of course, Leakage.

Regards
Slim
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

The steering may lock because of a dry ram cylinder. This is a known problem on elderly powersteering cars with the common ram cylinder layout.
The ram cylinder has no protective bellow over the protruding part of the piston, so its is possible for rust to build on the surface if it gets dry and humid for a while.
Even with the power assistance missing, the steering should feel "well possible" to control at speed. Much more effort is needed at standstill.

A good look under the car over a pit will quickly show if you have this problem.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
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Post by FrenchLeave »

The sinking and rising at the back, together with the inability to lift a heavy load, are also symptomatic of an internal leak in a rear suspension cylinder (I know this from bitter experience). Check the return pipes at the reservoir for one showing a steady flow.

On the subject of pump belts, the late model XMs with the 6+2 pump have multi-V belts.

Derek
slim123
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Post by slim123 »

Dry / Rusted Ram??

Never heard of that one!! If the ram gets pitted with rust (as is a common problem because Citroen ere too tight to fit it with a gaiter) The traveling in and out will very quickly tear the PTFE seals just inside the housing. This in turn will cause external leakage.

In my experience it will function perfectly normally, just pouring out fluid every where, (handy if you get lost!)

I belive that this is why Land Rovers leak oil, so the driver can find his way back home.

Regards
Slim
citroenxm
Posts: 8061
Joined: 30 Dec 2004, 23:10
Location: Somewhere in North Wales, Anglesey
My Cars: M reg Xm S2 2.1td Auto Exclusive. 269k and rising
L reg XM S1 V6 12v Manual SEi
L 94 XM 2.1 TD auto total resto

2008 Peugeot 207 Sw 1.6 16v hdi. 217k and rising
2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
x 70

Post by citroenxm »

Hi all

Thanks for your comments I read with interest. But come on, I know the basics, Its not a belt tightness problem.. the steering can work effortly for a week before playing up again.. surly V belts dont auto adjust that much, and NO it does NOT have the stupid auto tensioner on it either thank god!

I guess its gonna be a progress of elimination on this one, and I think the first two things I need to do is replace the HP pump and the rear anti sink unit!!

Is the 6+2 hyractive pump on a VSX same as an SX Anti sink non hydractive pump???? I know from other post the anti sink is different.

Thanks in advance

citroenxm
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
slim123
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Post by slim123 »

All the 6+2 pumps are the same basic pump, it is only the pully size, the distance from pump to pully and the allignment of the pipes that is different. So if the pump will physicaly fit, then it will do the job.

As for the rear anti sink unit, I dont think that this will be the problem.

Regards
Slim
SteveG

Post by SteveG »

slim123 wrote: I belive that this is why Land Rovers leak oil, so the driver can find his way back home.

Regards
Slim
I'll have you know that Land Rovers don't leak oil ... they simply mark their territory, like all predatory animals :D
steelcityuk
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Post by steelcityuk »

I think that the not wanting to rise when loaded and the little jump are related problems. I'd say it's either lack of pressure or a internal leak, with Hydractive systems the pressure must be inexcess of 150 bar to activate the HA valve, the pressure regulator is set with a bottom limit of 145 bar and a top limit of 170 bar, as time goes by both these figure could drop due to aging of the springs inside. If the pressure is borderline (as my Xantias is) then if the pressure reaches this level the extra sphere will suddenly cut in causing the car to jump. Mine did it this morning on the way to work. Currently my Xantia rides harsh all the time with the regulator ticking at 6 second intervals. All my spheres are new so my next project is finding the source of the internal leak.

Good luck.

Steve.
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