Xsara TD 1.9 1999 Morning start problem

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omriohyon
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Xsara TD 1.9 1999 Morning start problem

Post by omriohyon »

Hello guys, last night i was searching the forum high and low, to find some solution but i will try writing the Symptoms of the problem, tommrow morning, first thing , im going to the garage, but if anyone has this problem before and have an idea - spill it out for me.
P.s 460K Kilometers , fuel pump Reconditioned 2 years ago.
What is okay with the car:
1. Idle Speed - perfect. no problem what so ever, like new. (when warm)
2.Hot start - perfect, like new.
3.Driving, when HOT or cold engine- GREAT , no problem at all, drives real good. no cut offs, no smoke , not black not white not blue.
4.Oil consumption - never add any oil in 10k kilometers.
-----------------
Now whats wrong with the car:
On first start (morning only - 8 hrs at least of cold engine) You can crank as long as you want, no starting.
Now two things i need to mention: The Thermostatic sensor wire that go to the pump in order to push the MORNING lever, (Idle morning speed) aka 1000rpms instead of 850-900 dont work, i tried pushing the lever manualy and tight the bolt , the car starts sort of ok but hard as well, takes some cranking. if i push the gas pedel while starting it helps. , but when it start the rpms go mad for about 2 seconds and then sorted out himself.(the engine wants to stall)

Now for the solutions, tommrow first thing im going to try:
Replace Fuel filter,
Replace Thermostatic idle sensor
Should i change the Glow plugs ? , after i have changed all the above and glow plugs ,what should i look next? Injectors? (never done before, but again - no smoke while driving \ idling.
I Add 44K And it helped for 2 days , while pushing the Morning idle .
There is no bubles what so ever in the clear pipe that go from fuel filter hosuing to the pump , nothing at all.
Any suggestions ? (Sorry for the long post )

---
Edit: I want to add something
Its importent for you guys to know, here we dont have Cheap stuff
aka: You cant get a pump from scarp yard for 35 Quid, nor getting Plugs for 50 quid, or if it was so cheap like in the uk , i was going to buy everything brand new and replace everything, this car is very very importent to me , its not just a car, i got it from my father before he died, and i promised i will look it up and always take great care of it.
For exmaple:
Glow plugs - 50 Quid + Work (work costs another 20 )
Pump from scrap yard - 300 quid + 250 quid work.
Pump rebuilt - 500 Quid
Fuel filter: 20 quid (original )
injectors : 200 quid rebuild
fast idle sensor - god knows, im going to ask tommrow.
So please help me get the problem in the cheapst way.
thanks.
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Look for any suspectable air leak problems in the fuel system : surface cracking on the fuel hosing, split hoses over studs etc. etc.
Diesel fuel systems are by their construction principle notouriuosly hyper sensitive to air in the system, and WILL cause start problems after a long rest. Also mysteriously reving of the engine is caused by air in the pump's fuel volume regulating mechanism.
Air leaks are by far the most common problems on diesel engines at all.
In the mornings with cold engine, first thing you do : pump the button or bulb on the fuel system to make sure it feels hard (full of fuel).
Then try start the engine. If the engine now starts perfect, you know you have an air leak problem.
Note that the air leak is INTO the fuel system, i.e. the fuel will RARELY leak out of the system, because it is on the suction side of the pump, i.e. on the vacuum side.

Thats where I would start.

Next :
Have you any record on how old the glowplugs are ?
They usually work reliable for some 100K km.
And they are exactly responsible for troublefree coldstart, provided anything else is in working order.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
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Post by Peter.N. »

The problem is almost certainly the glow plugs, or loss power to them. If you have a meter, connect it between any of the screw connections of the plugs and earth, anywhere on the engine, turn the ignition switch to the glow plug position and you should have a reading of about 12 volts. If you do, the glow plugs are probably u/s, if not , you have a relay problem, but its far more likely to be the plugs
omriohyon
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thanks

Post by omriohyon »

thanks for ansering
1. abou the fuel and air - there are no bubbles on the Clear fuel pipe line that goes to the Lucas pump from the Filter. - and the problem was like so: a week ago, i got into my car, starts fine and quick, alot of white smoke ,Revs down (like bangs ) Bang and back up to normal revs, and again, untill you put in first gear, leave the cluch , and then its all normal again. (no revs up/down no bangs)
it was like this for a week, then i added 44K BG to the fuel system, it works great for 2 days (no starting problems at all, as long as you push the Fast idle morning lever czu the sensor is faulty)
and now - hard to start. very hard to start.
I will check the Priming on the morning, im waiting for the engine to cool. and when it will be coold i will pump the prime , untill it will get hard and try to start with no gas pedel \ touching fast idle thermostatic s**t.
if it will start -air leak
if not - what next?

Edit: I am feeling it is the Glow plugs, it has done 60k kilometers and its not bosch, its EQUYIM or something EQYUM
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Post by AndersDK »

60K km on the glowplugs would still be fine. I tend to believe you can rule out the plugs then. But test as pr Peters advice to make sure.

Lucas pumps are exactly prone to do these mystery rev things when air gets into the pump. Its like describing my BX TD symptoms :lol:

If the outside temperature gets below 10degC - you will have problems starting the diesel with no coldstart device functioning. What it does is actually to modify the injection timing a bit to ensure the engine starts easier. Thats also why the diesel clattering is more harsh with the coldstart.

Note that the coldstart waxstat cylinder is a common part for most Citroen & Peugeot engines - like the glowplugs are. It may very well pay off to shop around.
Estimated price level waxstat : £30, glowplug : £8.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
omriohyon
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Okay

Post by omriohyon »

i just started the car using the remote start remote control i have
It started after 10 seconds cranking , And i noticed alot of Gray Smoke
what Gray Smoke means?
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Post by CitroJim »

If you rule out everything else, especially glowplugs, and the problem persists, check your valve clearances.

The gray smoke is the giveaway. Unburned diesel. XUD engines are known for their valves to sink in the head slightly and this closes up the clearances. The clearances are also tightest on a stone-cold engine. What you may have is a few valves that are just off their seats when cold and as soon as just a little heat is present (even through cranking) the alloy of the head expands just enough to seat the valves and allow a start. Gray smoke shows fuel is getting in but not being ignited.
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Re: Okay

Post by ekaftan »

omriohyon wrote:i just started the car using the remote start remote control i have
It started after 10 seconds cranking , And i noticed alot of Gray Smoke
what Gray Smoke means?
Unburned Diesel. Most likely glowplugs faulty.
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Post by jeremy »

The waxstat device (for the pump cold start) is about £20 and easy to fit - but it only operates an electric switch - so there is no reason why you can't fit a switch that you can operate and it will give a you a faster idle.

Go for the easy bits first - and meter the glow plugs or check them with a test lamp. Their resistance should be minimal (ie in the region of 1 ohm) - much more and they have failed.
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an update

Post by omriohyon »

its cooled down, its cold out there, let it 5-6 hrs to realy cool
Cranking - nothing.. not starting
Tried again - no starting
i Open the switch 3 times (let the Glow plugs heat, shut, and again)
No starting.
opend the hood, Pushed the Fast Idle lever, after 5 second cranking the engine started but there was a like a Misfire, after 4 seconds of waiting - problem disapeard, engine smooth again, and the problem is gone.
Any suggestions?
in 3 hrs time i will be in the garage, going to replace:
Fuel Filter
Idle Speed sensor thingie ( i hope they got in stock )

Glow Plugs EQUYIM OR BOSCH
And see if the problem is still there, if it is - will go further ahaed ( Injectors, Fuel pump Timing, Valve Clearnce)
this will probadly cost me around 300-500 quid. at the citroen dealrship
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Post by uhn113x »

OM
I haven't read the post in depth, so I apologise if you have already covered some of the points.

From the above, it sounds like the fast idle device is not working - does it move the lever from the accelerator lever off the stop? You don't need a dealer - it is easy to replace after making sure that is the problem.

Is it any better if you pump up the fuel first with the priming bulb?
Glow plugs - 50 Quid + Work (work costs another 20 )
Pump from scrap yard - 300 quid + 250 quid work.
Pump rebuilt - 500 Quid
Fuel filter: 20 quid (original )
injectors : 200 quid rebuild
fast idle sensor - god knows, I'm going to ask tomorrow.
So please help me get the problem in the cheapest way.
Throwing money at dealers and using the scattergun method of diagnosis is a good way of fixing the problem in the most expensive way.
You can diagnose a lot yourself by thinking things out carefully - no tools required.

£20 for a fuel filter? Where is that?

BTW, it is Eyquem in case googling has failed.
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Post by CitroJim »

Even if the fast idle device is duff It won't affect cold starting that much. It can be easily eliminated by holding your foot slightly on the throttle when trying a start.

The Fast idle on my Xantia has been duff for years and the only effect is to make it cough a bit at first if I forget to give it a bit of manual fast idle with my foot.

I don't really think the fuel filter will be the cause either as grey/white smoke is visible when trying a start, this shows fuel is reaching the combustion chambers. Thus, the only other things needed for combustion is heat and compression. Loose one or the other and no start.

Firstly, you must eliminate the glowplugs by replacing them (£20 from GSF for good BERU ones) and checking that you see at least 11V on them for a good time after switching on the ignition. You can test them quite easily though by taking them out and putting them across a battery whilst holding the glowplug in a pair of pliers. See the tip glow red hot at first, followed by the whole shaft glowing merrily. Be careful because they get very hot indeed and stay hot for some time.

I had exactly these symptoms on Junior and she had tight valves. Since resetting the clearances she has been as good as gold. I checked and eliminated every other cause before looking at the clearances.

As Mike says above, there is no need of a dealer for any of it. Everything is straightforward, even down to checking and resetting the valve clearances.
Jim

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Post by uhn113x »

Yep - have a look at the glowplug elements by removing them sticking them across the battery, but watch yourself - they are HOT.
Make sure the leads are bright and tight - lotsa amps going through them!

Don't have a metal watchband on when you are anywhere near a car battery.

With a bit of luck, the last one on the cambelt side you won't have to look at - you need arms like Mr Tickle for access to this one! :(
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Post by CitroJim »

uhn113x wrote:With a bit of luck, the last one on the cambelt side you won't have to look at - you need arms like Mr Tickle for access to this one! :(
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: That Mike is the only one that ever goes!! Sods 11th Law, the easier it is to access, the less it will fail :wink:
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Post by AndersDK »

Omriohyon is airborn again and thanks you all here :
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=20986
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
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