Xsara VTS cambelt !!#^**-%$##!!*&%$#*!!

Unread post by **alan s** » 13 Nov 2006, 07:57

Big hearted Dad says to son "I'll do the cambelt on the car fer ya son...done heaps on BX16V, no problem; only take a coupla hours" ...........Yeah right!~!

What an abomination of a bloody thing!
I've got the old one off and the new one would fit like a glove if it didn't have to go round the jockey wheel and tensioner.
If I didn't know better, I'd swear it was the wrong sized belt, but it's identical to the one I took off but I have suspicions that these things may need a gadget to lock both cam sprockets. I have pins in but the sprockets seem to want to jam up against the pins and try as I might, I keep getting 1 tooth out on the crank sprocket and it seems that if I get the jockey wheel into position, the tensioner won't fit and vice versa.
Has anyone here ever done one of these and if so, any chance of a few clues?
I have "Auto data" which is about as much use as a tit on a bull.

Alan S

Unread post by **alan s** » 13 Nov 2006, 10:56

Well, we eventually got it on after a lot of grunting swearing and a third set of hands.
It appears that there needs to be a gadget (think Citroen service tool *****) to lock the camsprockets over and above the usual locking pins as the sprockets tend to want to drop their weight onto the locking pins and give all kinds of strange happenings. I have removed the plugs as I always do when doing a cambelt, but if you didn't know different you'd swear it was dropping over compression, I suspect it's the camshafts slipping off their lobes.
Did all the usual checks and tests only to discover the belt is wanting to run to the outsides of the sprockets, so back to the drawing board as that is a symptom of something being a couple of degrees out of square.......

So I've given up for the day, time to sample the Pale Ale and wash it down with a couple of "rough reds"..................back to the drawing board!!

Alan S

Unread post by **RichardW** » 13 Nov 2006, 12:28

Alan.

This thread *may* help! If it's not the right engine, then I can maybe look out a different engine code.

Xsara cambelt

Don't know why it's wanting to run off the pulleys now though!

citronut · Unread post by **citronut** » 13 Nov 2006, 19:04

i aint had any experiance with 16V engines,but if a cam belt trys going walk about its usualy down to the tentioner and or the jocky wheel bearing worn allowing it to lean,which makes the belt ride towards the edge
regards malcolm

Unread post by **alan s** » 13 Nov 2006, 21:28

Thanks Richard, but it seems the poster there (also from Oz) had the same problems I'm experiencing; I may try to contact him and see if he got it sorted or just flatbedded it off for someone else to have ulcers over.
The key to it seems to be that gadget that locks the cam sprockets. I've never had one pull these stunts on me before; it can be sitting in at the top sprockets perfectly and you find it's 2 teeth out at the bottom. Fit the bottom and without the jockey wheel on be sitting into one sprocket but riding a hjalf tooth out on the top. Lighten tension on the locating pins and seat the tooth and fine there's 1/2" slack between the cam sprockets, correct that and find you're 2 teeth out in the opposite direction down the crank end. Get it all sitting close to perfect and find it's so tight, there's hardly any deviation where the tensioner is supposed to go; you'd swear the belt was 2 inches too short, but if all the points are ignored, the tensioner fits and the new belt is exactly the size of the old one.

Where AutoData gets ambiguous is here:

http://www.geocities.com/tricky992002/install1.jpg

in sections 2 -3 - 4 - 5 -6 - 8

which indicated the sprockets are left spinning freely on the shafts and the belt is fitted and then the tensioner is released? Either I'm doing something wrong or whoever wrote Autodata was thinking of another car.
Malcom, I tested the tensioner and jockey wheel when I had them out of the car and these were 100% tight, so I'm expecting something like a tensioner incorrectly mounted or something similar.
Thanks for the food for thought so far, but keep it coming. I'll get there eventually.

Alan S

Gnerk · Unread post by **Gnerk** » 13 Nov 2006, 22:07

No-one has a Haynes joke book that can help Alan out? My ZX manual (which I don't have to hand...) used to be pretty specific on the 2.0 16v engine - not that I ever had a chance to work on one...

Unread post by **philhoward** » 14 Nov 2006, 06:28

Now don't swear at me, but this almost sounds like the arrangement used on a Ford Zetec engine, but with one small difference.

The Zetec engine has slots in the back of the cams to lock (but not hold) them in the correct TDC position; the camshaft sprockets for the Zetec are also free to spin when the normal centre bolt is released. Procedure for that is something like:
Get cams in correct position, put locking tool in the back of the cams.
Use sprocket holding tool and slacken sprocket bolts
Release tensioner
Remove old belt
Run belt around the sprockets and pulleys (with the cam sprockets still loose)
Tension the tensioner and lock in place
Re-tighten the cam sprocket bolts
Remove locking tool from back of cams.
Wind engine over 2 revolutions and recheck tension of belt

This allows for the cams to be kept at their TDC point when the crank is the same and not care where the sprockets are; its the relationship ebtween the cams and crank which is essential rather than how the belt is.

Hope this makes a little sense and might help (i.e. look for some sort of camshaft locking tool, not necessarily a sprocket locking tool).

Unread post by **alan s** » 14 Nov 2006, 06:39

Thanks, this sounds like what we thought.
In this pic, item 15 is the locking tool they reckon to use, but trying to find one in Australia is on par with trying to find washable loo paper, but I have been offered one that looks like two pieces of plastic with a small lug on each end and a slide that is held together with a plastic wing nut for A$95

but at least it looks like it would work. It will do the same job but from a different angle. Don't know that I'd be brave enough to put too much stress on it, but if I can't find something obvious, looks like what I'll have to get.

Thanks all for the ideas; looks like Wednesday (our time) is CB day.

Alan S

Unread post by **alan s** » 16 Nov 2006, 13:12

After much weeping, waling and gnashing of teeth (not to mention the swearing, dummy spits and drinking) it appears we may have found the problem.
The belt that was fitted that I didn't like the sound of, was fitted by a Citroen specialist the previous owner used, had 136 teeth on it. The one I was supplied also had 136 teeth on it, but it seems that after a certain RP number, the belt fitted had 137 teeth fitted, so in the morning, I have to call the supplier and organise the 137 variety and hopefully, that'sll be it.
The running off we feel was caused due to the ultra tight fit and one extremely strong son who tightened up the tensioner and jockey wheel so tight we suspect he caused some distortion. Once released and realigned and the both pulleys retensioned as per the manual, they tracked perfectly.
I have to wait a few days for the belt to come around 1600 klms, but will post when it arrives and (hopefully) is fitted and finished. Gettin' on me wick this job!

Alan S

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 16 Nov 2006, 13:57

Alan

Haynes ZX petrol workshop manual in english can be downloaded from here:

http://citroeny.cz/servis/servis.htm

Quinton Hazell belts catalogue can be downloaded here. QH are large independant parts manufacturers here and their products are usually Ok and available through independant accessories shops.

http://www2.qha.com/catalogues.asp

MattG · Unread post by **MattG** » 17 Nov 2006, 10:23

Sorry to take so long to show up Alan

I ended up Paying $240 for the local mechanic to fit mine, as to the number of teeth on the belt I can't remember I bought mine from France when I bought my Window Regulator. By the way I need to do the passenger one now

hope you have got it sorted.

Cheers

Matt

Mads · Unread post by **Mads** » 18 Nov 2006, 21:37

I changed the belt on my 97 Xantia a couple of times now; 136 teeth. As I remember Haynes recommend to loosen the two top "wheels" to adjust the rocker timing, but I found that the timing was spot on if I just left them alone. Guess belt specifications is so tight, that if they have been adjusted correctly once, there is really no need to do it again. Good luck.

Unread post by **alan s** » 22 Nov 2006, 10:39

Well, today was a more successful one.
New belt as per specs for the later engine has 137 teeth to it. The cam sprocket locking tool as shown on auto data was (naturally) unobtainable out here and the poxy looking thing for A$95 didn't look to me like it was worth the effort, so I made my own out of Merante, drilled it through and fitted a bolt out of a Ramset concrete locking bolts to it.
Found that one sprocket wouldn't "spin freely on the shaft" as Autodata said it should, so removed it and refitted it. I have a feeling the so called specialist who serviced it just before we bought it may have actually managed to have the sprocket riding up on the keyway somehow, because after I did the r & r, it spun freely.
Car sounds like new now with no more whirring and rattling it did previous and the valve timing must have been out by miles.
Got one very happy (and relieved) son now and a car running like new as a bonus, but brother, what a drama.

Alan S

MattG · Unread post by **MattG** » 22 Nov 2006, 22:49

Glad to here it Al

nothing like the perrrr of 16 happy valves.

Matt

French Car Forum

Xsara VTS cambelt !!#^**-%$##!!&%$#!!

Xsara VTS cambelt !!#^**-%$##!!&%$#!!