Rightho - recently acquired VSX 16V 2.0i manual 1997 car. It's been sitting
awaiting a replacement screen for about 3 months as other cars/jobs have
taken priority in the pecking order. This afternoon I went to move it ready
for the screen job and it unlocked on the plip but there's absolutely no dice
with any power getting into the ignition.
I've changed the battery for a good one and tried jump leads from a
running car to it but apart from the interior lights, hazards (which do
illuminate on the dash) and the alarm/siren there's no life in anything
else, ie, no headlights (hazards work with the alarm) and there's a fast
constant pulsing red light on the alarm light on the dash.**
I've even tried swapping an alternative ignition switch that is a recently
bought secondhand one from a seller on ebay I've bought from and been
pleased with in the past. The large 30/40/60/80 amp fuses beside the
battery are OK and I've checked alternative earthing with the jump leads.
No matter what, the car is for all intents and purposes totally dead -
certainly doesn't look like it'll ever move!! Has anyone been here in this
scenario before and knows a solution or has suggestions? I haven't
buckled down to the manuals and searching forums etc but that looks
like my next step. Incidentally, the keypad immobiliser has it's red light
flashing as they always do so there's power getting around the car
including the boot interior light!! The deadlocking works on the plip too...
Is there a lock out TOTALLY immobilsed shut down setting on a Xantia
alarm/immobiliser!?
** after swapping the big fuses around the 80amp reset the alarm!!
That's how the whole neighbourhood knows the alarm works...
Andrew
Xantia totally dead ignition - Alarm immobiliser!?
Moderator: RichardW
Most alarm/immobilisers AFAIK seem to have a back up ni-cad battery.
I had a case with my 16V that had a current draw when I had it off the road a while back, where the battery went dead flat. I replaced the main battery on the car only to find the car was still showing the symptoms your car has.
In frustration, I just left it sit for a few days, whereupon I discovered the ni-cad recharged (obviously off the cars battery) and at that point, the alarm worked and the vehicle started. It has never let me down since.
I'd suggest looking for the back up battery and if possible, recharging it or leaving it for a couple of days, connected to see if it does it like mine did, and I'd also be looking for any relays that might be associated with an immobiliser as they have a habit of getting corroded internal contacts (on the BX anyway) and for the cost of a new relay might be an easier fix than it appears at this stage.
Alan S
I had a case with my 16V that had a current draw when I had it off the road a while back, where the battery went dead flat. I replaced the main battery on the car only to find the car was still showing the symptoms your car has.
In frustration, I just left it sit for a few days, whereupon I discovered the ni-cad recharged (obviously off the cars battery) and at that point, the alarm worked and the vehicle started. It has never let me down since.
I'd suggest looking for the back up battery and if possible, recharging it or leaving it for a couple of days, connected to see if it does it like mine did, and I'd also be looking for any relays that might be associated with an immobiliser as they have a habit of getting corroded internal contacts (on the BX anyway) and for the cost of a new relay might be an easier fix than it appears at this stage.
Alan S
RIP Sept 19th 2008.
She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
Thanks for the reply Alan - still nothing this evening. It's strange, the car
wont illuminate any lights off the stalk or warble the lights on sounder when
there's a door open, though the interior courtesy lights do work normally.
There's a feeling the whole binnacle/ignition circuit in that area of the car
has been severed from the positive supply...
One thing that's concerning me a bit with the car now is the disappearance
of the red flashing light on the dash to the left of the clock - when I first tried
getting the car going it was pulsing in an almost constant manner but isn't
even on now when the alarm is armed by the plipper.
HELP!!
Andrew
wont illuminate any lights off the stalk or warble the lights on sounder when
there's a door open, though the interior courtesy lights do work normally.
There's a feeling the whole binnacle/ignition circuit in that area of the car
has been severed from the positive supply...
One thing that's concerning me a bit with the car now is the disappearance
of the red flashing light on the dash to the left of the clock - when I first tried
getting the car going it was pulsing in an almost constant manner but isn't
even on now when the alarm is armed by the plipper.
HELP!!
Andrew
Just a thought on this; do these models have that flat black plug near the battery?
It's on the CX and BX and is a flat multi spade terminal connector that comes off the positive terminal on the battery and is covered with a hard black plastic cover.
I have been caught out a couple of times with some of the connections being a bit corroded or as a worse case scenario, when I had a "specialist" fiddle with one one day and on the way home, I almost went over a cliff when everything died on a moonless night as I hit a small pothole.
If it has one, that might be a good starting point.
Alan S
It's on the CX and BX and is a flat multi spade terminal connector that comes off the positive terminal on the battery and is covered with a hard black plastic cover.
I have been caught out a couple of times with some of the connections being a bit corroded or as a worse case scenario, when I had a "specialist" fiddle with one one day and on the way home, I almost went over a cliff when everything died on a moonless night as I hit a small pothole.
If it has one, that might be a good starting point.
Alan S
RIP Sept 19th 2008.
She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
THIS IS DRIVING ME MAD! 
I haven't resorted to getting a big tree branch to swelt the car with, YET,
but give it time...
For all the world it's though the battery isn't even under the bonnet
when you try to use any headlights or start the car/switch on the
ignition. The positive feed isn't like the Cx - in fact I can't see where
it lives, dropping down as it does under the ABS computer.
The fact that the car's primary lighting circuit is totally dead
(ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) and the ignition is the same points to a primary
failure of power off the battery. I've examined everything and still
no joy. I still don't understand the headlamp flashers working and
all the hazard lights circuit working with the deadlocks on the
plipper. The interior cabin lighting circuit/central locking/and the
red pulse light on the keypad/alarm sensor and radio red led are other
circuits that are clearly geting power to them. The battery is 100%
chgarged and has had jump leads attached with no change. I've tried
creating alternative earthing using jump leads too.
My problem is that I cannot get into the engine bay fuse power box
that sits between the battery and the ABS block though I cannot see
why it's been working before and is now totally dead now - that said
when the big 40 - 60 - 80 amp fuses are removed and refitted the
alarm does arm itself and goes off when the doors are opened.
For all the world I can only think rainwater has filled into a circuit
somewhere and fritzed it all out without any fuses blowing or a mouse
has chewed through a primary feed wire somewhere unseen near the
battery.
Can anyone offer any suggestions to help as this is looking a bit
desperate - the car can't sit where it is indefinately...
Andrew
I haven't resorted to getting a big tree branch to swelt the car with, YET,
but give it time...
For all the world it's though the battery isn't even under the bonnet
when you try to use any headlights or start the car/switch on the
ignition. The positive feed isn't like the Cx - in fact I can't see where
it lives, dropping down as it does under the ABS computer.
The fact that the car's primary lighting circuit is totally dead
(ABSOLUTELY NOTHING) and the ignition is the same points to a primary
failure of power off the battery. I've examined everything and still
no joy. I still don't understand the headlamp flashers working and
all the hazard lights circuit working with the deadlocks on the
plipper. The interior cabin lighting circuit/central locking/and the
red pulse light on the keypad/alarm sensor and radio red led are other
circuits that are clearly geting power to them. The battery is 100%
chgarged and has had jump leads attached with no change. I've tried
creating alternative earthing using jump leads too.
My problem is that I cannot get into the engine bay fuse power box
that sits between the battery and the ABS block though I cannot see
why it's been working before and is now totally dead now - that said
when the big 40 - 60 - 80 amp fuses are removed and refitted the
alarm does arm itself and goes off when the doors are opened.
For all the world I can only think rainwater has filled into a circuit
somewhere and fritzed it all out without any fuses blowing or a mouse
has chewed through a primary feed wire somewhere unseen near the
battery.
Can anyone offer any suggestions to help as this is looking a bit
desperate - the car can't sit where it is indefinately...
Andrew
Just to recap - the car was working 100% and has been parked - it's sat
untouched for about 2 months and upon trying to get is started there's no
dice - even with a good battery etc. My only other thought upon racking my
brains is the recollection that the dip lights and dash lighting went out in the
dark one of the last times the car was used - though they did come back on
although I honestly cannot remember what I did - probably switched the lot
off and retried the ignition.
I cannot see why it would be the ignition switch as I've tried an alternative
one and can rule that out anyhow as the lighting circuit is dead too!
HEYULP...
Andrew
untouched for about 2 months and upon trying to get is started there's no
dice - even with a good battery etc. My only other thought upon racking my
brains is the recollection that the dip lights and dash lighting went out in the
dark one of the last times the car was used - though they did come back on
although I honestly cannot remember what I did - probably switched the lot
off and retried the ignition.
I cannot see why it would be the ignition switch as I've tried an alternative
one and can rule that out anyhow as the lighting circuit is dead too!
HEYULP...
Andrew
What about the "other end" of the ignition switch - the multiconnector (to/fro the ignition switch) that sits in the fuse/distributor box. They can partly disconnect - or burn out in one lead if badly terminated.
On the BX RHD versions there is an extension cord fitted to the ignition switch leads. The connectors are hidden under the carpeting and will fail if water gets in the car and soaks the carpets.
I suspect the same could happen to the Xantia, which is prone to leak in water from the scuttle panel.
I'd reach for my DVM and try a few test points to get a leader on the problem.
On the BX RHD versions there is an extension cord fitted to the ignition switch leads. The connectors are hidden under the carpeting and will fail if water gets in the car and soaks the carpets.
I suspect the same could happen to the Xantia, which is prone to leak in water from the scuttle panel.
I'd reach for my DVM and try a few test points to get a leader on the problem.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
I don't especially like electrics but am getting a multi meter off my father to
go through this shortly where more of an idea can be revealed - hopefully...
It would just be nice first to get a Xantia specific pointer where I should be
checking - the feed box doesn't especially look keen to let me in to actually
see it's connections/wiring! The earths are fortunately to the side of the
battery on the wing and have been cleaned and aren't oxidised etc.
Th cabin is 100% dry - is it likely the problem lives inside the car?
Andrew
go through this shortly where more of an idea can be revealed - hopefully...
It would just be nice first to get a Xantia specific pointer where I should be
checking - the feed box doesn't especially look keen to let me in to actually
see it's connections/wiring! The earths are fortunately to the side of the
battery on the wing and have been cleaned and aren't oxidised etc.
Th cabin is 100% dry - is it likely the problem lives inside the car?
Andrew
I expect the earth is visible - so check it (You may waste hours if you dont!
Actually you probably won't need a meter - a bulb in a holder will do or simply solder a couple of wires on a bulb - and get used to its brightness.
To check the earth - one end on the engine - other on battery positive - should light/read full voltage.
Now earth one side and try the terminal on the starter - one where the heavy lead ends, then go to the ignition switch and see if there is any feed there - and if not work in the wiring diagram sequence from the battery/starter until you loose the current.
Few people enjoy reading wiring diagrams - so copy the relevant pages and mark them up. Its also worth noting that many important circuits in cars are not fused.
Actually you probably won't need a meter - a bulb in a holder will do or simply solder a couple of wires on a bulb - and get used to its brightness.
To check the earth - one end on the engine - other on battery positive - should light/read full voltage.
Now earth one side and try the terminal on the starter - one where the heavy lead ends, then go to the ignition switch and see if there is any feed there - and if not work in the wiring diagram sequence from the battery/starter until you loose the current.
Few people enjoy reading wiring diagrams - so copy the relevant pages and mark them up. Its also worth noting that many important circuits in cars are not fused.
jeremy
Rightho - thanks for the input so far guys. I'm still not getting anywhere
though.
I've managed to trace the power feed from the supply box through the
high rated fuses and they all look fine. The earths work too apparently!!
They've been fettled extensively, including the gearbox earthing.
But from here I've not managed to take readings as the loom has an
interconnection point on the front nearside wing right beside the battery
where the harness goes out into the middle space between the front outer
and inner wings; it drops down and onto the main front crossmember
where it runs up and past the fuel computer/AEI box, through another
interconnection point into the offside wing. It runs up to the bulkhead
through a big mamma interconnection point and into the cabin to serve
the main fuses.
The only thing inside the car that I've made a reading of are the feeds
that join the main ignition switch - I'm getting 12v power in the black
connection, 5v in the brown one and nothing the grey connection...
- does this appear right!!
I'm not even sure what readings I'm expecting to get and don't feel
inclined to tug about with the wiring on my other Xantia petrol 2.0i VSX
parked alongside it, as judging from my luck there'll be another dead Xantia!!
The bottom line is there's power into the ignition some shape but I'm
unable to physically get access to the engine bay's loom to get readings
along it to diagnose any breaks etc. The loom looks dry and unchafed
along it's length and is all firmly clamped on the front crossmember.
For my sins, I've got an official Citroen Xantia electrics workshop manual
handy here but will openly admit auto electrics are not my strong point.
Give me a clutch/heater matrix change any day!!
I cannot see evidence to suggest anything is damaged and nothing has
been touched since the car was last parked up where it sits now. Only
external influences that I can determine are a shedload of heavy rain,
the possibility the confounded alarm has been going off all hours for it's
own reasons, or the fact that because the battery has been allowed to
drain I've somehow managed to upset something replacing it!!
What really seems to confuse my circuit diagram reading, is the fact that
the main beam flash works on the stalk but NO OTHER HEADLIGHTS will
light!!
I've tested what does and doesn't work to try and correlate any common
ground that would lose power to the lighting AND the ignition and apart
from the main +ve feed at the battery there is the main wiring loom about
the engine bay which I cannot get at!!
Things that are happily working as they should are:
hazard warning lights, digital clock, horn, headlight flasher,
interior courtesy lights, alarm, keypad/radio warning lights,
central locking, deadlocks, boot light...
I'm well fed up with this whole scenario now, and have my head elswhere
now my CX GTi turbo2 has just passed it's MOT and is being pressed into
service again with fun little jobs to fettle...
Can't help feeling, even with my limited electrical abilities, that I'm
missing something bleeding obvious with the alarm or something! Isn't
there an alarm reset button that will kick the whole lot back into life!?
I dread to think what the going rate for an auto electrician is, but frankly
any big bill will cost more than the car's worth!!
Andrew
though.
I've managed to trace the power feed from the supply box through the
high rated fuses and they all look fine. The earths work too apparently!!
They've been fettled extensively, including the gearbox earthing.
But from here I've not managed to take readings as the loom has an
interconnection point on the front nearside wing right beside the battery
where the harness goes out into the middle space between the front outer
and inner wings; it drops down and onto the main front crossmember
where it runs up and past the fuel computer/AEI box, through another
interconnection point into the offside wing. It runs up to the bulkhead
through a big mamma interconnection point and into the cabin to serve
the main fuses.
The only thing inside the car that I've made a reading of are the feeds
that join the main ignition switch - I'm getting 12v power in the black
connection, 5v in the brown one and nothing the grey connection...
- does this appear right!!
I'm not even sure what readings I'm expecting to get and don't feel
inclined to tug about with the wiring on my other Xantia petrol 2.0i VSX
parked alongside it, as judging from my luck there'll be another dead Xantia!!
The bottom line is there's power into the ignition some shape but I'm
unable to physically get access to the engine bay's loom to get readings
along it to diagnose any breaks etc. The loom looks dry and unchafed
along it's length and is all firmly clamped on the front crossmember.
For my sins, I've got an official Citroen Xantia electrics workshop manual
handy here but will openly admit auto electrics are not my strong point.
Give me a clutch/heater matrix change any day!!
I cannot see evidence to suggest anything is damaged and nothing has
been touched since the car was last parked up where it sits now. Only
external influences that I can determine are a shedload of heavy rain,
the possibility the confounded alarm has been going off all hours for it's
own reasons, or the fact that because the battery has been allowed to
drain I've somehow managed to upset something replacing it!!
What really seems to confuse my circuit diagram reading, is the fact that
the main beam flash works on the stalk but NO OTHER HEADLIGHTS will
light!!
I've tested what does and doesn't work to try and correlate any common
ground that would lose power to the lighting AND the ignition and apart
from the main +ve feed at the battery there is the main wiring loom about
the engine bay which I cannot get at!!
Things that are happily working as they should are:
hazard warning lights, digital clock, horn, headlight flasher,
interior courtesy lights, alarm, keypad/radio warning lights,
central locking, deadlocks, boot light...
I'm well fed up with this whole scenario now, and have my head elswhere
now my CX GTi turbo2 has just passed it's MOT and is being pressed into
service again with fun little jobs to fettle...
Can't help feeling, even with my limited electrical abilities, that I'm
missing something bleeding obvious with the alarm or something! Isn't
there an alarm reset button that will kick the whole lot back into life!?
I dread to think what the going rate for an auto electrician is, but frankly
any big bill will cost more than the car's worth!!
Andrew
Last edited by andmcit on 27 Jan 2007, 18:42, edited 1 time in total.
Grasping at straws now, but the car wouldn't have a motion sensor in its system by any chance?
There was one on my BX16V when I got and it was the most agricultural piece of electronics we've ever seen; clear plastic box with a set of (visible) contacts inside and every time the car settled completely, it went open circuit.
If you have got one of those big black multi plugs as you've indicated you may have, take each connection off, test for breaks near the terminal end, clean up and be certain it's a tight fit.
I've been caught with those mongrel things so often, I strap mine together with cable ties these days.
Further to wheelers suggestion, I recently had the front of a 2.0i Xantia and there was a swag of wires that ran behind the fgibreglass piece that sits behind the front bumper that may be prone to rodent damage given the right set of circumstances.
Alan S
There was one on my BX16V when I got and it was the most agricultural piece of electronics we've ever seen; clear plastic box with a set of (visible) contacts inside and every time the car settled completely, it went open circuit.
If you have got one of those big black multi plugs as you've indicated you may have, take each connection off, test for breaks near the terminal end, clean up and be certain it's a tight fit.
I've been caught with those mongrel things so often, I strap mine together with cable ties these days.
Further to wheelers suggestion, I recently had the front of a 2.0i Xantia and there was a swag of wires that ran behind the fgibreglass piece that sits behind the front bumper that may be prone to rodent damage given the right set of circumstances.
Alan S
RIP Sept 19th 2008.
She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
Have you actuall pulled the wiring out of the plastic sleeving & visually checked each wire ? are you also checking the feeds at the ignition switch with a bulb & not just a multi meter ? you can still get 12v at a wire but not enough current to light a bulb.andmcit wrote:The loom looks dry and unchafed
along it's length and is all firmly clamped on the front crossmember.
Remember this thread - it's not going away...
I've ACTUALLY traced the problem to a disapperance in the +ve feed in
one of the main cabling looms - there's a fork just off the battery and
one leg goes through a main multiplug joint into the void in the
bumper/inner/outer wing area and runs along the main engine bay
crossmember beneath the radaitor. The second leg runs round and
behind the passenger headlight where it then drops down the side of
the radiator not to be seen again...
There is however, a reappearance of the main engine bay's loom again
from the DRIVER'S side inner wing area where it then meets the
bulkhead in the car's scuttle area.
When I bridge power from the battery +ve post to a splice into the wire
that meets the bulkhead all is right again with it actually starting so the
main battle HAS BEEN won there finding out why it doesn't work!!
I'm slightly nervous about actually cutting the wire that I'm powering
up permanently but the right circuits are powered upon turning the
ignition and similarly weighted/coloured wires found alongside it are
showing live feed from the battery.
What is the best fix to effect a permanent and above all SAFE repair?
Also bearing in mind, the AC fan blower doesn't work or the HRW despite
a known good ignition switch being tried in earlier explorations. I cannot
see any direct link in the circuits to suggest there is a short between the
whole ignition circuit and the fan blower...
Andrew
I've ACTUALLY traced the problem to a disapperance in the +ve feed in
one of the main cabling looms - there's a fork just off the battery and
one leg goes through a main multiplug joint into the void in the
bumper/inner/outer wing area and runs along the main engine bay
crossmember beneath the radaitor. The second leg runs round and
behind the passenger headlight where it then drops down the side of
the radiator not to be seen again...
There is however, a reappearance of the main engine bay's loom again
from the DRIVER'S side inner wing area where it then meets the
bulkhead in the car's scuttle area.
When I bridge power from the battery +ve post to a splice into the wire
that meets the bulkhead all is right again with it actually starting so the
main battle HAS BEEN won there finding out why it doesn't work!!
I'm slightly nervous about actually cutting the wire that I'm powering
up permanently but the right circuits are powered upon turning the
ignition and similarly weighted/coloured wires found alongside it are
showing live feed from the battery.
What is the best fix to effect a permanent and above all SAFE repair?
Also bearing in mind, the AC fan blower doesn't work or the HRW despite
a known good ignition switch being tried in earlier explorations. I cannot
see any direct link in the circuits to suggest there is a short between the
whole ignition circuit and the fan blower...
Andrew