Diesel problem

np · Unread post by np » 04 Oct 2006, 21:41

Ok,so its not really French related,sorry Anders etc,but other forums are nothing compered to this 1

.Anyway,upon starting this diesel car from cold in the morning,or after work,it takes ages to fire & run.5 mins after work tonight!The fuel system is of the self bleed/prime type.There is no hand primer,only cranking of the engine.After cranking it for 5/6 times,it starts to chug into life,finally starting after the 10 th time.Once started,it will start instantly on the key all day long,as long as it doesnt sit for more than 5-6 hrs.My thinking is somehow the fuel is draining back out of the engine,hence the long cranking times.But it makes no difference in i park in facing downhill on our drive.I`ve thought about getting a primer bulb off a Xantia etc this weekend,seeing if i can fit that & if that makes a difference.Then i know if it is a case of fuel draing out.There are no visable leaks anywhere on the system,& the B.O.L`s is useless.
Anyone any ideas before i take it to a garage?
If i dont get into trouble

,i`ll tell you the make of car.
Many thanks

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 04 Oct 2006, 21:56

Really looks like it points to an air leak in the diesel feed supply and
as you say the system needs pressurising/priming to get back working.

Of course it could be worn bores with the rings slowly sealing with
the sump oil being fed into the bottom end as it churns...

'course, could just be a crap non Citroen diesel engine!!

Not a Rover by chance??

Andrew

np · Unread post by np » 04 Oct 2006, 22:12

1.7td Vaux Astra.Not sure if its the Izuzu or Vaux engine.Runs sweet as a nut after its going.Using it at the mo for work as i`ve sold mine.Bombs up & down the M5 to Devon no probs.Uses no oil,even with 154k on the clock.Not a bad car overall,just not a Citroen!!!Then i would have some kind of clue

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 04 Oct 2006, 22:55

Thought Vauxhall diesels were DESIGNED to use & loose oil - every ONE
I've ever been stuck behind has!

Obviously for a diesel to start it needs:

a good compression which you'd see the poor symptoms of with the clag
from the exhaust on startup and the oil level dropping over time...

a full unbroken feed of diesel from the pump - your priming bulb would
help you in this respect in the diagnosis, obviously you really don't
need air leaks...

a decent glow plug and timer system - the constant churning may be
relying on the sheer volume of diesel fed into the bore to finally get
the fuel compressed and firing with no help from the glow plugs...

decent diesel pump!!

All the above may be stating the bleeding obvious but it'd be worth going
through each aspect systematically if just to rule these out as a problem.

Andrew

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 04 Oct 2006, 23:00

One other thought, on talking about the actual diesel pump there's the
energised cut off plunger that blocks the primary diesel pump's feed
- these can be lazy if the electrical contact isn't 100%...

well, at least on some Citroen diesels like the Cx!

Andrew

KP · Unread post by KP » 05 Oct 2006, 08:10

Does it make any difference if you cycle the plugs at all for a minute or two before starting?

I agree with the above that either the fuel is running back or all your plugs are near enough stuffed

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 05 Oct 2006, 09:26

Sounds like no glow plugs to me - but you make no mention of smoke on starting. If it starts pumping out white smoke when its cranking and clouds when it does start everything is ok except for the glowplugs. Once started and warmish it shouldn't need glowplugs - so subsequent starts would be fine.

If its air then I would expect some smoke - as usually some fuel is injected - but late (due to sponginess the high pressure side - or occasionally - and loud knockings when it does fire - due to some cylinders having parts of several charges in them.)

It shouldn't need priming unless there is an air leak somewhere.

Glow plugs often fail rapidly once one goes - 1 down is barely noticeable, XUD's will start quite well on 2, 3 makes life interesting and smokey and 4 down - and you suddenly notice as it won't go at all. As no doubt the plugs were all fitted at the same time and have operated the same number of times and are made to close tolerances they will fail at the same time.

Glow plugs can be jumped with a jump lead to eliminate the timer etc. best to disconnect the plug feed lead - then just put a jump lead onto one (as they are all connected together) leave it for 20 seconds and try and start.

Plugs can be metered in situ - just talke the lead off the top and measure between terminal and the engine. Should be 1 ohm or so - and if they fail it will be very high.

Priming bulbs are sold everywhere - even B&Q sell something that looks very similar for priming central heating systems or something. Check it isn't soluble in diesel.

Now Direct Injections engines are a bit different and don't require glowplus most of the time. They are probably self priming with an electric pump at the tank and a high pressure pump at the engine end. Any problems with priming would be due to the low(ish) pressure pump at the tank. (Citroen ones seem to fail)

np · Unread post by np » 05 Oct 2006, 21:12

Thanks guys,certainly some food for thought there.The day we went to view the car,it started fine,even though the engine was cold to the touch.The following day she flatened the battery trying to start it.New battery & glow plugs were fitted.Did`nt really make a difference,although the battery dont flatten now.Never thought to check glow plug circuit.
It starts to puff whitish smoke when it starts firing,then when it start it puffs out a bit.Apart from that its not a heavy smoker.
But then there is some loud knockings for a few secs when it does fire from cold.
I think my first port of call sat morn then is to connect a live feed to glow plugs,& see if it starts.If it does,then looks like a glow plug circuit problem.
Thanks guys for the help,will keep you posted.

Unread post by **philhoward** » 05 Oct 2006, 21:36

If its an Isuzu engine, they are prone to the valve clearances going AWOL around 150k...sorry to be the bearer of (maybe) bad news!

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 05 Oct 2006, 21:49

I have heard of valve clearance problems with 1.7 XUD's - when apparently it shows as missing on one or more cylinders when cold - with that(those) cylinders joining in as soon as the head has expanded enough to allow them to close.

Such a valve would show up on a compression test - and it may be possible to hear something when the engine is cranked (with the fuel turned off - or manual stop lever operated) Possibly felt if the thing is jacked up and a front wheel turned with the car in 4th or 5th gear.

np · Unread post by np » 07 Oct 2006, 14:50

Right then guys,all sorted(hopefully!)
Checked glowplug feed & wiring this morning,all showing good voltage.No probs there.
Next up,remove glow plugs.Once out,looked as if they had`nt done a days work in the 9 mths the`ve been in.Wired up a live feed,then earthed,nothing

.No glow.Tryed an old one in my tool box from the Xantia,worked a treat.So walked down to my local factors,£63

for a set of Champions.Tryed them before putting in,glowed after about 5 secs.Fitted them all in,gave the plugs 2 cycles(as the light only comes on for about 2 secs)hey presto,she fired up

after been siting all night.
So it looks as if the "new" glow plugs i got in Jan never worked at all!
Its been said before on here,but dont by Halfrauds plugs

,they may only be £24,but they are useless.Save your self hassle & more expence & buy decent plugs in the first place .Here endeth the lesson

Many thanks to you all for your advice

Will let you know Mon how its been starting.

np · Unread post by np » 12 Oct 2006, 21:46

Been starting with no probs at all,all week.Sorted

micitroen · Unread post by **micitroen** » 13 Oct 2006, 12:05

Its always worth checking the 'small' things first, I knew a guy who had an old 205 diesel (over 300k) got difficult to start and because he thought it was nearly finished he started on the old Easy Start route every day..........I saw him doing this and said about the gloplugs....turns out thats all it was; he had never changed them in 10 years and 300k miles. It started perfectly for a good few months afterwards 'til it got wiped up whilst parked in the road.