Xantia 1997 ABS, turbo and starting trouble

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 03 Oct 2006, 22:35

i recently passed my driving test (last Tuesday in fact) and a friend of mine sold me a 1997 (R reg), Citroen Xantia 1.9lter TD SX with aircon for £200

i have a few problems with it and as I'm not really good with the names of things (though i am good with engines and fixing faults) i thought id ask this lovely community to see if any of you can help me

iv tried a search and alto there is some nice text and technical names and places of things, I'm kind of at a loss

so iv taken some nice pictures of my problem along with a explanation of whats going on with this car

first id like to start with the basics, the day after i brought the car, i took it for a little spin, apart from the turbo seeming none existent, i have to say i was pretty surprised with how smooth the ride was, after about an hour drive, i pulled up at some traffic lights and noticed that my breaks seem to just "let go" for a brief second then re apply themselves, that's when i noticed the light on my dash board come on (its a car in a break warning light with like skid marks out the back of it), after a good search on the web i found out this is the ABS warning light.

Now, my problem was to start with, it would go out and stay out after i had turned the ignition off and then back on again, now it just stays on soon as the engine is started, is this a faulty sensor, or is it the computer thingy?

next is the fact it takes quite some time to start and once started it kind of stutters into life with a plume of white smoke from the back, from what i have read this is just a case of changing the glow plugs

also there seems to be some pipes in the engine bay that seem to be needing connecting to something yet I'm not sure where they are supposed to go (see pictures) click image for larger picture

also some info in this thread but i didn't understand it much as my cable isn't connected to the engine in anyway shape or form, the T plug isn't connected to anything on the sensors

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... ntia+turbo

I'm thinking from what i can gather, this is why my turbo isn't working?

also about the hydraulics? is the car supposed to feel like its go no springs in the maximum height and lowest height settings? it also seems to sit quite high once the engine is off, and rises rather fast

any help on this matter would be rather appreciated

and if its at all possible if you have a solution, could you post pictures, as saying "this bit connects to this bit" will leave me none the wiser, thank you for your time

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 03 Oct 2006, 23:02

Firstly - yes at high and low settings it will feel like its got no springs as it hasnt. At low the suspension is sitting on its bump stops, at high the pressure in the system is the maximum attainable, and basically the thing is trying to break the chassis or the struts (back/front).

The ABS light should remain out at all times after the diagnostic test has been completed (when the light comes on at start-up. Once the system has detected a fault it should shut down and put on the light. It sounds like you have a faulty sensor - probably a lead has weathered or been pinched somewhere near the brake caliper - and your fault was intermittent but is now more permanent. You can usually test a sensor by measuring its resistance with a multimeter - and if its failed you will get an open circuit. You will have to floow the leads back from the sensors to find the plugs (not easy apparently on a Xantia - or disconnect the plug from the ECU and meter there. Loads of instructions on this site - including how to mend defective leads (competent solderers only)

White smoke at startup sounds like glow plugs - they will all fail at about the same time. Disconnect wires on top of each and measure resistance between terminal and the engine - should be about 1 ohm - much more - dud plug. Screw new ones home by hand without a spanner as they will cross thread if you are not careful - only tighten to 16 lb ft torque which is not very tight.

Brakes letting go has been the basis of much discussion on here - but start by testing the accumulator sphere. Start engine and let it idle for a couple of minutes to steady. turn engine off and sit in the boot. Car should sink a long way then after 30 seconds or so rise to its original position. If it doesn't the accumulator is flat. Other symptoms are frequent ticking of the regulator, which slows with the car at full height. Loads of instructions for replacing on here.

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 04 Oct 2006, 00:18

First of all, thank you for the reply.

Any news on them tubes that are not connected to anything? its kinda of disconcerting when things that are supposed to be attached to something, clearly are not.

Iv tried the "sit in the boot" test an the car does indeed raise, not sure its back at its starting point with me sitting in the boot, but it does raise back up. lol

Thank you for the advice about the hydraulics, if that's normal i can stop wondering about it. (kinda makes me wonder why it has hydraulics now)

Just a quick question? where are the sensors for the ABS located? are they behind the wheels?, and will i need to remove the wheel to get to the sensor?

I'm replacing the glow plugs tomorrow morning as i have nothing better to do, cant be as bad as a ford mondeo diesel turbo (man that was a nightmare)

Richard Gallagher · Post by **Richard Gallagher** » 04 Oct 2006, 06:09

One of the tubes/pipes you refer to connect to the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation valve) which is best left disconnected anyway.

The other connects onto the fuel pump in order to mildly adjust the idle speed when cold, or when the aircon is operating. I've had my car since new and this second one makes little or no difference to the running of the car at all so I personally wouldn't worry about it too much.
A very knowledgeable member of this site (Dave Burns, search under his name) has written a detailed post on these solenoids if you want more detailed info.

The ABS sensors are located directly behind the wheel which you will need to remove in order to access them.

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 04 Oct 2006, 06:29

jeremy wrote:Brakes letting go has been the basis of much discussion on here - but start by testing the accumulator sphere. Start engine and let it idle for a couple of minutes to steady. turn engine off and sit in the boot. Car should sink a long way then after 30 seconds or so rise to its original position. If it doesn't the accumulator is flat. Other symptoms are frequent ticking of the regulator, which slows with the car at full height. Loads of instructions for replacing on here.

From his reply it looks like the accumulator sphere is ok. I'd wager that the "Brakes letting go" at slow speed is being caused by the ABS fault as it happened just before the ABS warning light came on. (And I've actually had this happen to me a couple of times when my ABS was faulty)

I'd start by measuring the ABS sensors from the ABS ECU plug (pinouts are somewhere on this forum) - as the individual plugs near the sensors are extremely hard to get to, and the fault could in fact be upstream of those connectors anyway. (or the fault could BE one of the connectors)

Until the ABS fault is found I'd suggest unplugging the ABS fuse while driving so it can't happen at an inopertune moment! The light will be on all the time then but the brakes will act normally like any car without ABS, instead of odd things happening.

Regards,
Simon

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 04 Oct 2006, 06:38

TehAgent wrote:Thank you for the advice about the hydraulics, if that's normal i can stop wondering about it. (kinda makes me wonder why it has hydraulics now)

I think you answered your own question when you said you were surprised how smooth the ride was....

The hydraulic system allows for self leveling regardless of load changes, which allows the springing to be a lot softer than normal. (A normally sprung car with springing that soft would bottom the suspension as soon as the people got in, with no way to correct for it!)

More advanced models like Hydractive 2 have additional advantages - a soft and firm mode switched by a computer based on driving conditions - put simply a soft ride most of the time, but stiffening up when you corner/brake/accelerate hard for better handling.

Then there is the Activa which takes it one step further and uses active anti-roll rams to eliminate body roll completely...

None of which are possible with conventional springing

Just a quick question? where are the sensors for the ABS located? are they behind the wheels?, and will i need to remove the wheel to get to the sensor?

They're bolted in the wheel hubs near the brake calipers, but as I mentioned in my other reply I'd measure for a fault back at the plug going into the ECU first...

Regards,
Simon

awg2 · Post by **awg2** » 04 Oct 2006, 08:30

I have exactly the same problem and symptoms for ABS. I searched on the forum for AMS <AND> PIN and got some useful stuff.

By disconnecting the ECU connector in front of the LHM reservoir you can initially check continuity to the sensors without having to do stuff at the wheel end.
One useful one from Dave Goddard was
"The pin numbers on my Xania (ATE ECU) is
F.N.S. 15 & 30
F.O.S. 1 & 6
R.N.S. 28 & 19
R.O.S. 29 & 31
Should be about 1,500 ohms. "

My pins were not numbered but if you count the three rows always from the same end there is only one way that works (1 and 6 is a good clue).

These all gave me the correct resistance and then I found the ABS light was off. Back underneath tonight (ramps!) to try again. MOT due very soon - sod's law.

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 04 Oct 2006, 13:35

the advice is very much appreciated, thank you all
the reason i asked about the tubing, is because my turbo seems non existent, it feels just like any normal non turbo car, i also think the turbo isn't working as i get get just under 200 miles out of it on £10 (11 ltrs) so that's pretty impressive in its self

you are right about the comfy ride, an i do love it

my MOT is at the end of may so still a long way off at the moment, but its such a nice car to drive, i want to get as many kinks out as i as can

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 04 Oct 2006, 17:28

There should be a thin (ish if its a Bosch pump) running from the high pressure inlet pipework (ie after the turbo) to the injection pump. Its function is to communicate the inlet manifold pressure to the pump which then supplies more fuel - hence more power. Most instant non-turbo conversions are in fact this pipe dropping off or splitting.

It should be quite easy to find - but if not - there are some detailed descriptions and there were some pictures on this site. I don't know its location having never even sat in a Xantia.

If the pipe needs replacing - ordinary fuel tube as sold by your friendly spares shop will do.

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 04 Oct 2006, 21:37

Richard Gallagher wrote:One of the tubes/pipes you refer to connect to the EGR (exhaust gas recirculation valve) which is best left disconnected anyway.

The other connects onto the fuel pump in order to mildly adjust the idle speed when cold, or when the aircon is operating. I've had my car since new and this second one makes little or no difference to the running of the car at all so I personally wouldn't worry about it too much.
A very knowledgeable member of this site (Dave Burns, search under his name) has written a detailed post on these solenoids if you want more detailed info.

The ABS sensors are located directly behind the wheel which you will need to remove in order to access them.

isn't the EGR required by law in the UK? I'm sure iv read that somewhere, and just where is that tube supposed to end up, it would be handy so i can replace/repair/reconnect it

PS Jeremy you have been a great help, i was wondering if you have any pictures of what you are on about? I'm not good with part names, yet if i know what I'm looking at then it will help lots

i managed to change 2 of my glow plugs today, couldn't get the hard ones behind the metal thing (cam belt end) as the light was fading fast and i didn't have the spanners to reach, it seems to start a bit better but wont know till the morning when its had the chance to cool down properly

np · Post by np » 04 Oct 2006, 21:58

TehAgent wrote:
I'm replacing the glow plugs tomorrow morning as i have nothing better to do, cant be as bad as a ford mondeo diesel turbo (man that was a nightmare)

Hope it all goes ok

.Given the choice,i think i would prefer to do the Mondeo glow plugs.They were easy on my wifes old TD.Although,once i bent enough spanners,i can do the glowplugs & number 4 behind the fuel pump in about 30 mins on my old Xantia

np · Post by np » 04 Oct 2006, 22:05

Had a phone call half way through posting.I think the metal thing is the fuel pump.Very time consuming the first time.As i said,i bent a few old spanners at funny angles to get the difficult plugs out.Makes it a bit easyer.I also found that taking the black intercooler cross over pipe off was better for access.But unless you know exactly how the pipe comes off the turbo behind the engine,& the combination of sockets & extenders to use,its very fiddly & time consuming.
But as i said,i can do all that in about 30 mins or so to change all 4.Bring it round to my house if you want

Cheers,Neil.

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 05 Oct 2006, 01:27

might take you up on that offer lol
you anywhere near Northampton?

anyway, i got 2 done , the easy ones, just the hard ones to go now, and them tubes are really bugging me

Post by **RichardW** » 05 Oct 2006, 09:12

The 'big metal thing' getting in the way of the glow plugs is the injection pump. There should be a small diameter hose coming off the top of this, and running back and left (as you look at it) over the top of the engine, where it should connect into one of the big fat air pipes that run from over the back of the engine to the intercooler (in front of the radiator). Check that this hose is present, and there are no obvious splits, then with the engine running at about 2,500 rpm, feel all over it to make sure no air is leaking out.

Check also that all the big fat hoses are connected - they get oily over time and can pop off (I last managed it pulling >4k rpm up hill on the A66 - it soon slows down with it off

).

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 05 Oct 2006, 09:36

sorry - posted in wrong place. (NO it wasn't really embarrasing!)