Xantia failed MOT on ineffective parking brake :-(

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 02 Oct 2006, 10:09

Gowdammit!! Everything works fine including the foot brakes so I'm going
on theassumption the callipers and pads on the front hubs are OK. The
actual handbrake lever seems nice and firm and doesn't point to the
headlining like a Cx and is within the 5 clicks usual rule of thumb and
there's no binding just no braking effort...

Where does leave me - new cables or simple adjustment on the end of
the calliper? It's till too early on a monday morning for my brain to
function 100% without an injection of caffeine!!

Andrew

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 02 Oct 2006, 10:16

Thinking about it (Iknow it's difficult sometimes!!

) the problem must be
centralised to the main primary lever/cable as both sides of the handbrake
aren't up to muster. Is there a central primary cable? I've not had the
misfortune to mess around with a Xantia in this area!!

Andrew

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 02 Oct 2006, 10:24

Xantia handbrake cables are 1 from each wheel to a balancer and 1 cable from the balancer to the lever.
You DONT adkust the cable to get handbrakes function.
The cables are initially adjusted to take up any slack after installation - and then never again.

To adjust the Xantia (and BX & XM) handbrake :
have car parked engine idle.
Handbrake lever fully home.
Now calmly press the brake pedal home - then a bit further over the hard point you can feel. Pump it calmly to the bottom. This will force the toothed cam on the handbrake mechanism to adjust itself.

Never use violence on the pedal or lever. Just calm & firm forces. Any good working handbrake lever & cables (even thepedal) can be destroyed by violence - or a thickheaded MOT'er.

Note :
If you are used to adjust CX handbrakes - then forget about it !
The Xantia (BX & XM) handbrakes are a MUCH more sensible construction

Unread post by **RichardW** » 02 Oct 2006, 10:59

It's unusual for both sides to be down - unless one cable is broken and the other seized (possible!). The primary cable is pretty well protected and rarely gives trouble - which is a good job since changing it is a night mare seemingly. What you might find is that water has got into the calipers behind the big rubber boots and rusted the mechanism up - you can get a repair kit for these from Citroen. Changing the cables on a Xantia is pretty easy - although you have to do the inboard ends by feel behind the exhaust heat shield. Usually the handbrake is well adjusted up after the test, as they usually do the foot brake test first, which gives the brakes some welly, and adjusts up the hanbrake.

One other thing. They did test the h/brake on the front wheels, didn't they.....

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 02 Oct 2006, 11:16

Typical - the handbrake cables/mechanism were the ONLY item I left on the
estate bodyshell I've literally just got rid of on Friday - I kept everything else
but didn't fancy faffing around with the shield etc!!

Thinking about this, the swivel mechanism on the top of the calliper is purely
for the handbrake and these do seize up - makes sense as the cable will be
stiff pulling them and that could be why the actual handbrake lever seems
firm and shortish in it's travel. Am I barking up the right tree here then!?
Swap the callipers over with ones I know are good? The discs and pads
are recent and ceratinly haven't done many miles and IIRC the cables
looked fine.

Thing is, in my experience with Xm's the duff calliper lever mechanism
actually made the brakes bind, rather then not work at all!!

Andrew

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 02 Oct 2006, 14:45

Make sure that the levers on the calipers are going right back against the stop when the handbrake is released or they wont self adjust. The cables can just get stiff without actually breaking or siezing up. If they are stiff the best solution is to replace them.

NiSk · Unread post by **NiSk** » 02 Oct 2006, 16:29

Before you start dismantling the brakes, check that the ends of the handbrake cables actually move when the handbrake is applied. I've seen many seized handbrake cables on BX's, XM's and Xantias. If they dont move, disconnect from the upside down "J" on the caliper and try moving it with a large screwdriver. This should indicate which area you should investigate more deeply (and they did check the function of the hand brake with the >FRONT> wheels on the rollers, didn't they?)

//NiSk

f00lzz · Unread post by **f00lzz** » 02 Oct 2006, 19:01

Surely 5 clicks is excessive on a Xantia... both my Xant's will lock solid at 2 clicks.... this is by design I believe.

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 02 Oct 2006, 20:52

Righto, I've had a good look at the confounded handbrake this evening
upon getting home in the failing light!! The movement of the handbrake
lever is solid on the first notch as you say foolzz - my error as I'm used
to describing things relative to Cx's and we're NOT going there in relation
to Cx handbrakes...!!

The angle would be roughly equivalent to a sorted 5 clicks on a Cx...

The levers on the caliper housing travel evenly on both sides of the car
through what I believe are their full travel - a marked point through the
whole travel moves approx 15mm and gentle persuasion doesn't create
any movement either way.

The only part of the handbrake that doesn't instill me with 100%
confidence are the cables to the calipers which have got chafing into the
cable where Citroen thoughtfully positioned sharp edged loops to route
them. I know these aren't expensive so will change them but am not
convinced their replacement will cure my problem. The foot operated
brakes work well and draw the car up cleanly and straight with no pulsing
grabbing etc and whilst I know this doesn't involve the handbrake this
vouches for the discs and pads beeing ok and not glazed etc.

The only probable cause as far as I can see are the cables unless there is
more movement in the caliper levers than I've measured. This particular
car has always had one of the more positive feeling reassuring handbrakes
than many of the other cars I drive and I never saw it actually failing on
this problem - there's some damned steep hills around my part of the
world and I never expected to see the old Xantia handbrake curse being
an issue for me!!

I am quite amazed the handbrake doesn't pass the test as I couldn't budge
the wheel with a long bar wedged on two bolts on the hub with the
handbrake on and have tried driving down the steepest hill and engaging
the clutch with the thing left on with the car stalling!! OK, so it works but
seemingly not high enough to meet the rolling road test - the tester I will
vouch for as he's seen all my Citroens for the last 16 odd years and I
would expect by now he knows which end locks up!!

Any further views or suggestions!?

Andrew

Unread post by **philhoward** » 02 Oct 2006, 21:30

f00lzz wrote:Surely 5 clicks is excessive on a Xantia... both my Xant's will lock solid at 2 clicks.... this is by design I believe.

2 plus the 3 which got removed on recall!!

It WAS 3 clicks to removed by angle grinder as part of the early recall, wasn't it?

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 02 Oct 2006, 21:32

philhoward wrote:
f00lzz wrote:Surely 5 clicks is excessive on a Xantia... both my Xant's will lock solid at 2 clicks.... this is by design I believe.
2 plus the 3 which got removed on recall!!

It WAS 3 clicks to removed by angle grinder as part of the early recall, wasn't it?

Yep, that's what I read!

Andrew

Unread post by **philhoward** » 02 Oct 2006, 21:38

That'll be described in the BOL as..
1. Disconnect battery (as always..)
2. Using Citroen Tool AG-650W, carefully remove the first 3 teeth of the angular attachment ratchet. If the approved Citroen tool is not available, use any angle grinder from B&Q and hack off the teeth you can get to. Then ring your windscreen company to remove the 6,000 little stars in your winscreen and door glass... To replace the dashboard, see section 11.6.1 (Heater matrix removal).

Sorry....

Mandrake · Unread post by **Mandrake** » 02 Oct 2006, 21:42

f00lzz wrote:Surely 5 clicks is excessive on a Xantia... both my Xant's will lock solid at 2 clicks.... this is by design I believe.

Whoa there....

There is something that needs to be brought to peoples attention here - there was a handbrake modification recall on the Xantia some time around 95/96.

For an older Xantia or one that didn't have the recall done (I believe they didn't bother with Automatics due to the added safety of park mode in the transmition) it is NORMAL for the handbrake operation to be around 8-12 clicks for firm application, NOT 3 clicks.

If you adjust an older model like this so its 3 clicks (or even 5) the brakes WILL drag, and further more it may hinder the operation of the automatic adjuster ratchet as the handbrake has to be fully released when the footbrake is depressed for the ratchet to adjust.

Later models, and those that had the recal modification done got a new ratchet plate for the handbrake which DELETED the first (approx) 6-7 teeth from the ratchet so you have to pull the lever much further before you reach the first tooth, therefore forcing you to pull the handbrake on securely.

On these cars firm handbrake application is more like 3-5 clicks.

It's very important that people don't mix up these two variations of the handbrake mechanism

The adjustment of the handbrake cable is the same on all models though, and is very easy - with the wheels turned straight ahead and the handbrake fully released, the cable to the lever arm on the caliper should be slack, and if you grasp the black cable sheath and pull it and the two lock nuts away from the hole in the housing (and so that the centre going to the lever arm is pulled tight) there should be a 1.5mm gap between the faces of the locknuts and the face of the housing.

And yes, it can get out of adjustment, either due to cables stretching with age (or wearing through the inner teflon sheath) or due to people fiddling with it. This adjustment is completely independant of the self adjuster mechanism in the caliper itself. (Which can only compensate for pad and disc wear)

Never go by number of clicks when adjusting the Xantia handbrake cable...

Regards,
Simon