Newbie Forum member - not so newbie car (BX)!

[Colin Winn]

Hi to everyone. I'm a newbie to the Forum.

I arrive in need, as one does!

This is going to seem odd, as most people just take their cars to the garage to be fixed and especially as we are in the land of BX's (France).

However, we've cleaned ourselves out doing our place up, so I'm playing Mr. Fixit with cars, too!

The problem with French Garages? Cost! Particularly franchise dealers. How many arms and legs can I afford to lose?

Well then, to the problem - our otherwise wonderful BX 16 TRS we thought, had blown its head gasket. OK - off with the head, once disentangled from miles of tubing, the need for which I came to question!

Head off - gasket intact. Old, but intact. However, the real reason for losing all water within a few kms, was all too evident. A cracked piston liner. Clang. Best advice I can get is to go to a breakers and get a second hand BX engine, one with a relatively 'guaranteed' mileage - although this is going to be massive is it not?

I'm not fond of this idea. The 'replacement' engine is likely to be as worn as our otherwise OK-from-the-looks-of-it, engine. The manual says if one needs to replace liners, then they come (do they?) as sets with the pistons. But clearly, this is an engine out job - back on with the head and use the lifting eyes?

And - I've never got to this stage of an engine job before . . . so I need guidance folks!

Firstly, how hellish is it to dismantle or undo the driveshafts to the point where they are undone enough to release the engine and do I need (more) special tools to achieve this and ...
Secondly, what's involved in getting the old liners out, which parts will definitely need replacing when I do get the liners out and am I likely to find (because they do not tell you this at the Citroen garage) that I need a piston ring compressor, or are the pistons already fiited in the liners - which then only necessitates me knowing how to press the liners out and re-fit (how hard is this - is it a DIY job?).

Apart from this, I've got the whole thing under control!!!

I really appreciate it if you have made it to the bottom of this plea for help and for all replies I may receive. I promise to keep messages short in future - this was a starter message!

Cheers,

Colin

[citronut]

you should be able to remove and refit pistons and linners without removeing the hole engine,because with the BX you can take the sump of in situe,the only problems may be making sure the new linner sealsat its sealing ring,and you get the protrusion of the linner right,i cantt remember if it is possible to buy these on there own or as a set,it would be far easyer to get a good second hand lump,as to the drive shafts the you need to undo both hub nuts whilst the wheels are on the ground,then with the car saftly supported and suspention de/presurised disconect the strut to hub joint on both sides of the car,now lean the hub out so you can remove the out drive shaft C/V jointfrom the hub,now put a tray under the diff where the saft gose in and pull the shaft out,with the right hand shaft after dropping the C/V joint out of the hub,you need to undo and remove the two 11mm nuts at the intermediate bearing,this is held in place by two special bolts,with the nuts removed drift on the collar at the gear box side of the bearing mounting until the bearing is clear of the mounting,when the shafts come out you should loose about 1lt of gear oil,now if you have the car high enough of the ground there is no need to lift the engine and box out at the top as you can put a trolly jack under it and lower it to the grond,on reffiting it just walk it under the car attach the engine hoist and lift back into place
regards malcolm

ps.
welcom to this forum and dont worry most people on here are trying to save dosh

[Peter.N.]

Hi Colin

I cant add anything useful to citroenuts reply except that there do still seem to be a large number of BXs in France, but as you say, the spares seem to cost a lot more there and have probably done a lot more miles. An XM parts firm I contacted here said that they had very few Mk2 parts as they could get a lot more for them in France.

I bought a 405 td estate here for a friend of mine who lives in Brittany as not only are they much cheaper here but estates seem to be almost unheard of there.

When I was in France earlier this year I was nearly hit in the side by a BX, and yes, I was on the proper side of the road!

[JohnD]

Hi Colin

I

I bought a 405 td estate here for a friend of mine who lives in Brittany as not only are they much cheaper here but estates seem to be almost unheard of there.

!

I advertised my late 2.1 Xantia on eBay and it was bought by an English guy living in France. When I picked him up at Heathrow to collect it, he surprised me by telling me that Xantia estates were much dearer in France than England - in spite of having to change the headlamps.

Hi to Colin - I met you on the CitroenPicasso site.

[Colin Winn]

I'd like to say thanks very much to everyone who had replied to my first posting.

Grateful to you, Citronut, for all that advice. I'm trying to take it in and may have to come back for some supplementary explanations!
Firstly, taking the engine out with all that driveshaft stuff sounds VERY complicated to me.

If it CAN be done by removing the sump, I'd be happier with that.

My question about that is - how to remove the liners - am I going to need a press or do they pop out quite happily - but more to the point the new set to go in - well, that's just a mystery to me - I guess I'll have to get a piston ring compressing tool ?

- but when you buy sets of pistons and liners, are the pistons prefitted or anything (would make life easier wouldn't it?)?

How does one go about the refit once the old is out? the dismantling of the pistion and refitting is one I've never tackled before!

PeterN and JohnD (Hi John - thanks for the link) . . . the estates, I think they refer to here as 'Breaks' (my Dad used to call estates Shooting Brakes, funnily enough never really found out why! Think it was an American expression - but originally may have come from Frenchmen in the US). No, we don't see many estates, very true - although there's a nice BX estate in the next village.
And Yes, second hand cars are very much more expensive over here - we're still trying to find out why.

So I don't think I'm going to buy an old lump and go to the trouble of fitting and wait for it to fail on me as mine did - I'd rather deal with this devil that I know.

If anyone (Citronut) can help me with my queries about the piston and liners above - I'd be eternally grateful.

Cheers all.
C.

[CitroJim]

Colin,

If its the XU5 engine you have (1580cc) then it is entirely possible to change a liner in-situ. I have stripped these engines (from 205GTis) a few times and find the liners will come out quite readily if you tap from the bottom with a soft wooden drift and a mallet. The trick is to take it gently and not to do any damage. They can be a real nightmare if there is significant corrosion on them as a result of the engine not having sufficient good anti-freeze in circulation at any time. A good soaking in penetrating oil should help.

The liners sit in a bore and are sealed by a large "O" ring so when you replace, be sure all is scroupulously clean and use a new "O" ring. The liner protrousion above the deck is important and should be the same to within tolerance limits as the others. The protrousion cannot be adjusted.

When changing just one liner, be very careful not to disturb the others as if they are, they will have to come out to have new "O" rings fitted. One way of making sure the others are not disturbed is to hold them down with large washers bolted to the head studs.

On the subject of head studs, DO NOT follow the Haynes manual instructions for torquing them up on refitting. You risk stripping the block threads.

Do feel free to come back as much as you need for advice Colin.

Good luck and over to Citronut for all the important stuff I've forgotten to tell you

[jeremy]

There's no magic to a piston ring compressor - it just squuezes the rings so they go in the bore - and as the BX has single piece scrapers they're quite easy - and you can use a large hose type clip if you like (and in some respects its easier) The real thing costs little over here.

I expect you can buy a complete new liner and piston. No doubt if you do someone will try and persuade you you should do all 4! How much else you do is a matter for you (remaining rings - crank bearings . . . but as these engines have a reputation for lasting well you'll probably get away with a pistion and liner. What may be worth doing while you have the head off is to replace the valve stem oil seals and use a new cambelt when re-assembling.

[Colin Winn]

Hi to you both, Jeremy and Citrojim

Those points are REALLY helpful to me (and very encouraging with it!).
Jeremy . . . I may be in luck (for once) as the timing belt was done just prior to the problem occurring and I've already bought some oil stem seals.

The cam lobes and all bearings look pretty good to my inexperienced eye - and yes, I'm sure Citroen will try to sell me a set of 4 of everything!

Good tip about the large jubilee clip by the way!

Citrojim . . . thanks too. Yes, it's the 1590 you've described.

So, I remove liners by tapping upward - is it the same for refitting? By which I mean, inserting from underneath?

That sounds a bit strange to me but I can't see that I can refit by tapping down from above - or can I?

The reason I say this is because how can you compress the piston ring and then tap the liner down over the ring and continue to seat that liner - AND remove the ring compressor!?!

By the same token, I don't see how I can fit the liner from underneath and then fit a sealing ring -

I'm sure you know very much better and I'm just being stupid (plus I've never done it before!).

I can't see any protrusion above the top of the block by the liners at all . . . they look flush to me - presumably held in position by the head - is that what you meant or am I missing something again (just the usual intelligence quotient probably - sorry!).

Thanks to all - I may be regaining my enthusiasm for the job!

C.

[CitroJim]

No worries Colin, the liners tap out from the bottom. You will see the very ends of them if you look up into the block from below. When the liner is out all will be 100% clear, the liner has a smaller machined diamater at the base and this is what sits in the block bore. The "O" ring sits on this machined surface at the step between it and the bigger, roughly finished main diamater of the liner. The liner is refitted from the top and gently tapped into plce until it sits tight against the top of the bore in the block.

The liners protrude a very small amount above the block deck so as to seal against the head gasket fire rings. The fire rings crush a little into the liner tops to ensure a really tight gas seal, hence the need for a little protrousion. I'm not sure what the protrousion is now. I'll have a look at the specs and post back later.

It is possible to fit the piston in the liner before refittting the liner in the block. Just take great care to prevent the big end clonking into the crank journal when fitting or clonking anything else for that matter!

Be sure that the arrow and word "Dist" on top of the piston points to the cambelt end of the engine. The Pistons have an offset gudgeon pin and must be installed in the right way round. "Dist" in this case does not mean distributor as might be thought but it's the French abbreviation for the cambelt...

Hope that has helped a bit to clarify Colin...

EDIT: Liner protrousion spec. is 0.08 - 0.15mm with a maximum of 0.05mm between liners. Measure by putting a steel rule across the top of the liner edge-on and measuring with feeler gauges the gap between it and the block deck..

[jeremy]

Useful tip to prevent the big end bolts damaging the crank journal is to slip bits of tube over them - or bind with tape.

Never done the job but would expect to put the piston in the liner and then fit the liner to the engine.

[citronut]

the piston dose come ready fitted into the linner,but you will still have to fit the conrod to the piston,even thogh this can be fitted to the piston whilst only sliding the piston out of the linner just enough to tap out the gudgion pin to allow you to fit the conrod,it might be wise to remove the new piston and check the piston rings are not damaged or in the wrong position,and the linners come up out of the block from the bottom,with piston and conrod still attatched,as you only disconect the conrod from the big end at the cranck shaft,then you refit in the opposite way,also be very carefull with the linner seals(O rings) as they are very fine and they need a very clean seat in the block and to linner
regards malcolm

[Colin Winn]

Hi fellas,
Whoa! This is the 2nd time I've had to type this, thanks to rubbish France Telecom phone line connections - I hope it posts this time round!

Thanks for all help to this stage. So, before I get practical and continue, I think it goes like this (all corrections welcome);

1) Drain Oil, Remove sump (new gasket on refit?)
2) Secure the liners not to be removed wiht bolts and washers
3) With wooden drift, tap u/s liner up and out (piston stays put?)
4) Unbolt con rod from crankshaft, remove piston and con rod.
5) Remove old O seal and clean area thoroughly
6) Re-fit new O ring seal
7) Undo gift wrapping from new liner and piston!
8) Remove new piston from new liner to check ring's OK, re-fit ,noting piston mark and direction of piston crown orientation
9) Leave enough piston showing to be able to fit onto small con rod end (will I need a new gudgeon pin or anything?) -
OR fit to con rod whilst out of liner?
10) Protect crank from big end con rod bolts with wrapping of sorts, now - do I fit the piston & con rod into liner and tap liner into place?
OR - refit piston and con rod onto crank, and then use ring compressor to fit into liner as the liner is pushed into position from above?
11) verify protrusion of liner at top end
12) refit all previously dismantled parts, using new gaskets as necessary.
By the way, I've got 'Torx' head bolts - the handbook says it's not necessary to re check their tightness after fixing down.

I have 2 more questions, please:-
A) The protrusion figures - are those 'thou', as would be marked on my normal UK feeler gauges? Only you specified in 'mm's.
B) MORE WORRYING:- when I removed the head, summat fell out or off - it's a metal bush or something akin to that - about and inch long (or deep) - now, I don't know if I'm barking up the wrong tree, but the very shiny tensioner wheel I backed off to release the timing belt does NOT have a cover, as is shown in the manual - could this 'bush' or spacer have been in the middle acting centrifugally? It isn't, by the way, a head dowel - they're still in place!

Any correction to my method above and suggestions gratefully received.

Thanks a mill, everyone.
Colin.

[CitroJim]

Hi Colin,

Good to see a list. I do that on major jobs

Taking your Points in turn.

3) Remove the piston and conrod first.
5) the remains of the "O" ring will come out with the liner.
7) You'll need to remove the conrod from the old piston. The gudgeon pin is pressed in and will need to be carefully pressed out. I've never done this so I hope someone else can advise but don't, whatever you do, try to hammer it out otherwise you'll do damage. You may be able to use a large vice and mandrel to press it out.
9) Given the above, I'd install the conrod with the piston out of the liner completey. The gudgeon pin has to be pressed in. If it were me, I'd carve a semi-circular piece of wood to hold the piston very snugly on its side to allow a downward force from a small press to install the pin. A local engineering outfit may be best for this task.
11) Protrousion. measured in mm, not thous.
12) Head Torque. Ensure that the threads in the block are scroupulously clean. Make up a cleaning tap by making some sawcuts in an old head bolt so that it looks like a tap. Use this to clean up the threads. Oil them and make sure on each block thread you can screw the new head bolt in by hand all the way with no stiffness whatsoever. Then torque up as per The Haynes manual but don't finally angle-tighten to 300 degrees. You risk stripping a block thread. Go to 150 degrees only on the final angle tighten and all will be fine. You are right, no further checks are necessary as the head bolts stretch as they tighten, pulling the head down tight on the block and leaving a little residual "stretch" to ensure this is always the case. Hence the official method of tightening them to a given torque, loosening them, torquing them up again and then finally angle-tightening them. Note that old bolts must never be reused as they will have been stretched once and won't restretch. Ensure you tighten in the right sequence and do't do it all in one go. Do each in a number of "bites".

B) MORE WORRYING. Yes, I expect this is the spacer that goes onto No.8 head bolt. This spacer is essential to prevent the head bolt going too far into the block and breaking into a waterway. I cannot think of anything else except that in one corner of the head is a dowel which of course must be reused. Finally there is a little oil filter mesh that goes into the head at an angle to strain the oil going up to the camshaft. You'll find a new on in your gasket set and wonder what on earth it is. On the subject of head gasket sets, you'll find a good few gaskets you don't need as the sets cover every variation of XU engine.

Colin, if my quick description of the head torquing procedure is a bit quick and unclear, let me know and I'll go into much more detail as it's critical to ensure that the new head gasket has a good life.

Finally, I'd recommend a very,very light skim of the head to ensure it's flat and clean. They can warp a little as you are removing them. Replace, as Jeremy said, the valve stem oil seals and I'd give the valves a quick lap whist you have it all in bits. Replace the big end shells too.

The biggest thing you have to be careful of in all of this is cleanliness.

As I say, don't hesitate to keep asking questions

Edited because of my terrible typing

[citronut]

no no you remove the piston,conrod and linner all in one unit,and the same on refitting,allways fit the piston and conrod into the linner whilst its out of the block on the bench,also once you have checked the new piston rings for damage you need to rotate them in such a way that the opening of the rings are eaqualy spaced from one and other around the piston,the new piston comes with a new gudgion pin and a wire circlip at each end,once you have picked out one of the clips from one side of the piston use a soft drift to knock out the gudgion pin,this is when i would have the piston partly fitted into the linner to the point where the gudgion pin is just clear to drift out,and not only do you have to have the piston direction correct,you also must make sure the conrod is the same way round to which it was when you dismantled it,as it must go back onto the crack the right way around,when you have removed the lower half of the big end fit a piece of rubber tube to the threads on the bottom of the conrod to protect the cranck,before you do any cleaning of the O ring seat in the block lay some clean cloth over the cranck shaft
regards malcolm

[Colin Winn]

Sorry guys - second time round - why is everything so hard to do in France?!

Citrojim & Citronut - many thanks indeed.

A few more Q's . . .

Why new bearing shells? Won't this just throw the engine out of balance?
Surely the conrod would be happier nestling on the same bearings its mated with over 18-20 years?

CJ - I have 2 head positioning dowels - one in diametrically opposed corners. Will look for vacant space for No.8 head screw spacer, though. Didn't know to use new head bolts - don't think the book tells you that! Would have thought 'stretching' of bolts would've allowed head loosening, not tightening?

CNut - I'm not taking this engine out - it's on stands and trolley jack and in the car - so will drop the sump and try to deal with it that way - this gudgeon pin sounds like a bit of a beast to deal with - is it going to be THAT tricky??!!

Er - not intending to skim the head - have already bought the h/gasket and the book says you need a thicker H/gasket if you've skimmed or bought re-con head! I removed it VERY carefully, with one flat at a time type turns on the nuts - so I can hope it's not warped, can't I?

Head oil filter - does it screw out or pull out (have new one bought already!)? And for the valve springs - spring compressor needed? Will doing the oil valve seals (I have these too) mess the valve/cylinder timing config that exists at the mo' - or can I change the seals without altering the valve configuration in existence ??

Cheers to all once more. Almost looking forward to getting down to the job!!

Sincerely,

Colin