locked tyre thread

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 21 Jun 2006, 00:16

AndersDK wrote: Clonk ...

Advising owners to put the best tyres on front is false, wrong and highly dangerous

While I respect your opinion on many matters Anders, and your contributions as both a moderator and a long time poster,

I think that your sudden locking of this thread is an abuse of your powers as a moderator, where you seem to be locking a discussion simply because the opinions of others do not agree with your own, rather than because the thread was off topic or inflamitory or otherwise against the terms of conduct of the forum.

While you may feel that what you say is a solid fact that cannot be disputed, it is in fact only your opinion and there are many people that would disagree with you on this point.

Discussion about the pros and cons of things is part of what makes this forum so great - nobody knows everything, and everyone is wrong about something, and from that everybody learns.

Lets all keep the discussions friendly and of a technical nature and not be personally offended when our own firmly held beliefs are challenged by others. (This applies to everyone)

Regards,
Simon

Paulee · Post by **Paulee** » 21 Jun 2006, 00:32

I agree with Mandrake entirely

Isn't debate the coming together of ideas to arrive at a sensible solution ?

Or to agree to disagree in this instance.

Closing the thread seem a little strange in the circumstances, we all have a lot to learn from the topic.

regards...paul

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 21 Jun 2006, 00:53

I don't normally buy into these types of threads due to the fact that in my opinion, if a thread is locked on any forum I visit, I take that as being done in good faith and for good reason and accept it and I suggest you do the same.
The fact of whether you consider Anders advice good, bad or indifferent is immaterial as he has made a decision based on his own knowledge and FYI, I saw a similar thing happen a few years back when a contributor suggested that a way to check lower control arm bushes was to put the car up on the jack and lie under the car and apply pressure with a Jemmy bar to see if there was any movement; he also argued that this was not dangerous. In my opinion, a Kamakaze pilot wouldn't have even tried that on and as a result the thread was locked, much to the disgust of the poster, but again, from the sideline, I agreed with that decision.
I would suspect that Anders has based his argument on not only personal experience, but on that another Cit owner who doesn't visit here much these days who was a safety test driver for a Government department over there and who also advised me of exactly the same things that Anders has and if you doubt me on that, I can give you this guys contact details offlist oif you wish to verify; he also suggested that anyone advising this was really treading on thin ice and given the times we live in these days where what was once considered friendly advice can now be legally described as "failure in your duty of care" and legal action taken accordingly in the advent of personal injury as a result of knowingly giving flawed advice that was a safety concern, I feel Anders did the right thing in locking that thread before it got out of hand.
The moderators have been advised by me that anything that places this forum in any jeopardy must be addressed as we don't want to lose this resource again, so let it drop at that hey.

Alan S

JohnM52 · Post by **JohnM52** » 21 Jun 2006, 01:10

Agree with the locking of the tyre thread. The advice given widely, in UK at least, is that new goes to rear. The Michelin Tyre website had that advice and large numbers of tyre fitting services also require the same. A long discussion was held in XM-L the Yahoo group about the same topic, lots of 'experts' who knew better than scientific research.

We can only be persuaded by well researched arguement, not personal predjudice.

twiggy · Post by **twiggy** » 21 Jun 2006, 01:23

Whilst I understand the theory of 'best on the back' as losing the front causes a slight drift compared to losing the back and having a total spin, I have always found myself that on the Xantia, the front goes way before the rear in emergencies so my choice is my choice and not a recommendation to others.
Interestingly, on a lorry the best tyres MUST be on the front, no remoulds allowed etc. Work that one out

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 21 Jun 2006, 03:51

twiggy wrote:Whilst I understand the theory of 'best on the back' as losing the front causes a slight drift compared to losing the back and having a total spin, I have always found myself that on the Xantia, the front goes way before the rear in emergencies so my choice is my choice and not a recommendation to others.

I think it should be obvious that ANY advice obtained from this forum must always be taken with a grain of salt, especially where safety is concerned.

That is the nature of information retrieved from the internet where you only know as much about the person giving advice as what they tell you. (Nobody here can "prove" that they are qualified to give a certain piece of advice, or that they are knowledgable in that area)

Everyone has differening levels of expertise (or lack of) in different areas with no real way for one person to verify another persons claims except by consensus and/or trying to find outside references which verify the information.

It's up to each individual reader to make up their own minds what advice they believe and what they don't based on what is put forward by both sides of a discussion, and independant verification of facts. (due dillegence)

Perhaps what is really needed is a disclaimer in the "read me first" sticky which says that Frenchcarforum takes no responsibility for carrying out any advice given by members of the forum and that it is the responsibility of the individual to verify the validity and safety of advice and take due care and caution in following said advice.

I know exactly where Alan is coming from here - afterall I was the one who kicked up such a big fuss about the advice to drill holes in the side of spheres

Regards,
Simon

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 21 Jun 2006, 10:13

I agree with Anders advice and I agree that we can't give bad advice on the forum. It is generally accepted that the best tyres should go on the back of a car to make it stable, its what many tyre manufacturers and retailers recommend. Cars are deliberately set up to understeer, even supercars understeer these days (until you turn the power on).

The reason that putting the best tyres on the front is dangerous advice is simple. When a car understeers it still steers just not as much as you'd like. When you get oversteer if you can catch the car and correct it, you can get back to trying to steer in the direction you want to drive in. In the BTCC Nigel Mansell proved that even the best drivers in the world can't always catch oversteer.

The best advice is to have good tyres at both ends of the car, who would dispute that?

watsoft · Post by **watsoft** » 21 Jun 2006, 12:16

I agree with Mandrake in that the forum is there for ideas, good and sometimes bad. Visitors use the information at their own discretion, hopefully after further research elsewhere. In many instances the advice given is based on opinion and I believe it is healthy to dispute any grey areas. I think a disclaimer would be appropriate.

I would suggest that advising front or back in this instance is largely irrelevant given that both sets of tyres should be serviceable, having at least the minimum tread depth present.

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, my personal preference is to fit the new tyres on the front as this is where the vehicle is driven, steered and most importantly where the breaking is biased towards on my car. Different circumstances and driving conditions will favour different choices, but I prefer to stop in the wet and not under-steer head-first into a car coming in the opposite direction. True, I might loose the back-end, but it usually (not always) takes a more aggressive manoeuvre.

Experts can be wrong, just watch the news!

watsoft · Post by **watsoft** » 21 Jun 2006, 12:31

I've just taken a look at the original thread and realise that I've just repeated everything that Mandrake said. I'm sorry for that, but must say that my experiences reflect his comments and I will continue to shun the 'experts' and fit new to the front.

Remember, the choice is YOURS!

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 21 Jun 2006, 14:18

Having been landed in a motorway crash barrier at 70 MPH by an incompetently designed German sports coupe when its back wheels locked under braking I would do anything not to repeat the experience - so I observe manufacturers advice and common sense.

Good back tyres always!

bxbodger · Post by **bxbodger** » 21 Jun 2006, 15:06

an incompetently designed Ferman sports coupe when its back wheels locked under braking

This would not be a VW Sc****co by any chance would it

All this tyre talk is irrelevant to my old Triumph anyway- the swing axle lets go long before the tyres ever do!!

BonceChops · Post by **BonceChops** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:00

Have a read of http://www.michelin.co.uk/uk/auto/auto_ ... r_neuf.jsp and see why Michelin say you should have the best tyres at the rear. They should know they make and test the things to destruction.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:10

It was indeed - a well maintained and not very old Scirrocco GTI - like all of its type the brakes were very poor despite having ventilated discs, servo etc. I'd always thought this was intended to be a safety device to make locking up difficult (like some Triumphs which were very heavy - my Stag included) - but when required these things responded to hard application by locking at the back!

Wonderful!

deian · Post by **deian** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:25

still... we all have our own opinion and many of us think we know better because we are the ones that drive the car from day to day, and that is my philosophy.

i will keep my new tyres on the front for my own reasons, as i don't drive so fast as to make the rear jump out in that manner, on top of this i believe a good driver is not just just good because he can drive well and not crash his car but to avoid the actions of other bad drivers on the road, i know this situation well as i had a BMW mauled by punto 3 years ago, so now i am aware of that need.

i feel if i need to rely on my tyres that much then i should also drive within the limits 100% of the time, and 90% of us never do that.

My point being, if we are unfortunate enough to be caught in such a bad accident as to make the rear of the car to swerve out in an oversteering manner then we should think of more trivial aspects such as speed limits, driving conditions etc.

A car accident is caused by three factors or combinations of: human error, mechanical failure or environmental, 90% of the time it's human error, i.e speeding, not looking, lack of concentration, careless etc.

I understand fully your reasons anders and i'm sure you will put your best tyres on the rear, i however won't for my own reasons, one being that i feel the back tyres are more than capable of saving my life.

Please don't take offence from mandrake or myself, we are just sharing opinions. people who drive citroens have a brain, and i'm sure they will do what they think is right

Thanks

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 21 Jun 2006, 18:41

Can someone tell me how to become immortal?