C5 HDI-110 clutch

ebod · Post by **ebod** » 22 May 2006, 22:02

Hi all,
I guided my dad towards getting his 1st Citroen last August. It has about 57k miles so I guess its got maybe 63k by now.

The car is about to begin its seasonal duty of towing their caravan up-hill down-dale, but he's suggesting he can't make sense of whether clutch is functioning properly.

I've searched this forum recently and deduced his car has got one of these dual mass flywheel type assemblies which seem to be a big problem looming on the horizon for all 2nd hand ex-rep cars.

Can someone explain to me :-
1. how they work in relation to the old style 'simple' clutches
2. what are the wear parts which constitute a new clutch/flywheel kit
3. whats the bit that gets damaged to the extent its costs a £grand to sort out.
4. If a clutch kit was fitted as a precaution every ~30k miles does this mean the £grand bit will go on forever?

5. I tried to get and ID for http://www.citroen-pr.net but no email yet. Can any Mr Joe Public get access or is it business groups only?

Help as I don't want my old man to get lumbered with a busted clutch in the middle of Glen Coe or somewhere even more remote.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 22 May 2006, 23:19

Citroen PR net is for business use. I registered as a private person no business data. Just tipped in my name once again.
Got an email shortly after.
Cant see anything wrong public Joe Citroen owner registers and have access to info on his car. After all the majority owners would have to book in at Citroen anyway ...

0600 01 312025 CLUTCH WTHT RET MECH PLATE BEARING BUFFE DIESEL TURBO DW10ATED SANS FAP ET BVM ML OU DIESEL TURBO DW10ATED SANS FAP ET BVM ML5C OU DIESEL TURBO DW10ATED FAP ET BVM ML OU DIESEL TURBO DW10ATED FAP ET BVM ML5C
http://www.citroen-pr.net/catalogues/il ... 20A250.gif

0600 01 312030 CLUTCH WTHT RET MECH PLATE BEARING BUFFE DIESEL TURBO DW12TED4 ET BVM ML5T
http://www.citroen-pr.net/catalogues/il ... 20A300.gif

PS : You see anything very special on these clutches ?

ebod · Post by **ebod** » 22 May 2006, 23:46

AndersDK wrote:PS : You see anything very special on these clutches ?

No...it looks like a standard clutch to me......

Post by **RichardW** » 23 May 2006, 08:19

It's not the clutch that's at fault, it's the flywheel, as you note - the clutch is standard. The flywheel's dual-mass - this means that instead of being machined out of one solid piece of cast iron, it's made out of two different metals, bonded together with a rubber sandwich. I think this is supposed to help damp out vibrations as the drive is taken up. However, similar to the rubber bonded crankshaft pulley, they eventually fall apart

When this happens, the central part stays bolted to the crank shaft, whilst the outer part exits stage left via the bellhousing and usually the radiator, and probably smashing the input shaft as well. Cue new clutch, flywheel, radiator and exchange gearbox

However, there does appear to be a warning, and that is a small squeak heard on starting and stopping the engine, and possibly on taking up the drive. So you probably end up replacing the clutch long before it's really worn out, since you need to replace the flywheel as its debonding. DM flywheels are expensinve though - £300 + - alhough I believe LUK do a replacement clutch / flywheel kit with a solid flywheel. In the event of clutch replacement because it is worn out, the DM flywheel should be replaced as a matter of course. Typical life seems to be in the range 75-100k - same as the crank pulley!

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 23 May 2006, 08:47

AndersDK wrote:Citroen PR net is for business use. I registered as a private person no business data. Just tipped in my name once again.
Got an email shortly after.
Cant see anything wrong public Joe Citroen owner registers and have access to info on his car. After all the majority owners would have to book in at Citroen anyway ...

0600 01 312025 CLUTCH WTHT RET MECH PLATE BEARING BUFFE DIESEL TURBO DW10ATED SANS FAP ET BVM ML OU DIESEL TURBO DW10ATED SANS FAP ET BVM ML5C OU DIESEL TURBO DW10ATED FAP ET BVM ML OU DIESEL TURBO DW10ATED FAP ET BVM ML5C
http://www.citroen-pr.net/catalogues/il ... 20A250.gif

0600 01 312030 CLUTCH WTHT RET MECH PLATE BEARING BUFFE DIESEL TURBO DW12TED4 ET BVM ML5T
http://www.citroen-pr.net/catalogues/il ... 20A300.gif

PS : You see anything very special on these clutches ?

Hi AndersDK

Are you refering to the fact that these clutch mechanisms are of the modern pull type design ?

ebod · Post by **ebod** » 23 May 2006, 13:22

RichardW wrote: a small squeak heard on starting and stopping the engine, and possibly on taking up the drive.

...crumbs , my Xsara HDI-110 (100k miles ) is making a small squeak when its cold and I'm hard on take-off. A couple of people have assured me that Xsaras don't have dual mass flywheels.....

So if I'm to make a recommendation to my dad, his ~63k miled '02' C5 estate towcar needs to have the whole kit n' kiboodle replaced i.e. clutch , pressure plate , release bearing and flywheel

What the approx GSF carparts price for that lot then ( I'll check separately )[/url]

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 23 May 2006, 14:07

RichardW wrote:It's not the clutch that's at fault, it's the flywheel, as you note - the clutch is standard. The flywheel's dual-mass - this means that instead of being machined out of one solid piece of cast iron, it's made out of two different metals, bonded together with a rubber sandwich. I think this is supposed to help damp out vibrations as the drive is taken up. However, similar to the rubber bonded crankshaft pulley, they eventually fall apart When this happens, the central part stays bolted to the crank shaft, whilst the outer part exits stage left via the bellhousing and usually the radiator, and probably smashing the input shaft as well. Cue new clutch, flywheel, radiator and exchange gearbox However, there does appear to be a warning, and that is a small squeak heard on starting and stopping the engine, and possibly on taking up the drive. So you probably end up replacing the clutch long before it's really worn out, since you need to replace the flywheel as its debonding. DM flywheels are expensinve though - £300 + - alhough I believe LUK do a replacement clutch / flywheel kit with a solid flywheel. In the event of clutch replacement because it is worn out, the DM flywheel should be replaced as a matter of course. Typical life seems to be in the range 75-100k - same as the crank pulley!

Apparently there is a Valeo clutch kit which allows as mentioned above, the opportunity to revert to a solid flywheel.

Here's the link.

http://www.valeoservice.com/actualites. ... 4C&lang=en

Post by **RichardW** » 23 May 2006, 14:40

Citroen-pr.net lists the same flywheel for both the 90 and 110 BHP HDi Xsara II called just 'Flywheel', whereas they list a different unit for the C5, and call it 'Clutch Dual Flywheel' - so I take it that the Xsara does indeed NOT have a DM flywheel 8) The DMF for the C5 costs £314

Clutch kit for either (pressure & friction plates and bearing) should be under £100 from GSF.

ebod · Post by **ebod** » 23 May 2006, 17:47

RichardW wrote:The DMF for the C5 costs £314 Clutch kit for either (pressure & friction plates and bearing) should be under £100 from GSF.

Spoke to the Leeds branch this afters. The clutch kit is £76 , DM is £186

and the whole lot incl vat is £308 quid . I also have tracked down an ex-Cit dealershipo mechanic who'll fit it all for £130

So £450 seems a lot...but complete piece of mind thats the price to pay

406 V6 · Post by **406 V6** » 23 May 2006, 20:49

Apparently there is a Valeo clutch kit which allows as mentioned above, the opportunity to revert to a solid flywheel.

Cool 8) !!!! Now i know what to choose when the clutch is due.
I hate the Citroën dual mass flywheel, the car shakes a bit below 1800rpm if i start pulling it 2nd gear and above in that rev range (though i'm not so sure on the engine mounts...). My Frontera has a DM flywheel too but doesn't make vibs nor anything. Could it be the design Citroën opted for?

bencowell · Post by **bencowell** » 25 May 2006, 21:42

Does anyone know how many hours it takes to replace a C5 HDI 110 clutch?

pugxpert · Post by **pugxpert** » 26 May 2006, 07:48

another reason for the dual mass flywheel is that the clutch friction plate is solid and has no absortion springs in it,honda have binned this dual mass flywheel and reverted back to solid type. speak to your citroen dealer if you are low mileage there may be warranty extension on this part.

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 26 May 2006, 08:53

Well here's a diagram of a dual mass flywheel showing how complicated, and therefore more expensive it is compared to a solid flywheel.

Post by **RichardW** » 26 May 2006, 16:16

"Does anyone know how many hours it takes to replace a C5 HDI 110 clutch?"

The book time according to Autodata is 5.7 hours, 6.1 hours including the flywheel. Easily add 50% to that for DIY!

406 V6 · Post by **406 V6** » 27 Jun 2006, 19:19

Taking up on this topic again, i'll probably get a new flywheel soon on mine. ON stop and go traffic, as the clutch statrts to heat up a bit more or taking up on a hill, the engine shakes and rocks the car.
SO, as the Xsara and C5 share the same engine, blah-blah, are the flywheels interchangeable? That'd be neat!
I don't find at the Valeo website the new 4-part clutch kit...[/u]