ESP, VSA

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mezuk04
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ESP, VSA

Post by mezuk04 »

http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=219916

A very interesting video and I'm in full support, are YOU?
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fastandfurryous
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Post by fastandfurryous »

No. I'm completely against electronics in my car.

I do not want a box of electronics to have the capability to put my brakes on. ABS is bad enough; look at what happens when that goes wrong. When an ESP system goes wrong, the consequences could be fatal.

Plus, it has been proven that almost all "safety" features in cars are almost completely ineffective, as people simply end up driving faster, closer to the car in front, more dangerously etc etc etc. Airbags were supposed to "massively reduce road casualties" Have they? Nope. ABS was supposed to be the same. Has it made a difference? Nope.

The answer is safer drivers. The car is tested every single year of it's life. The driver isn't, and should be.

I don't need a box of electronics to drive for me. I can drive and handle my car perfectly well thankyouverymuchindeed!

The problem is that so many drivers on the road are either blind, stupid or completely unable to drive safely, that if the government actually did something about getting these drivers off the road, they would loose a massive amount money in motoring taxation. So they don't. And we end up with cheapo unreliable electronics in our cars under the label of "safety" (which, when they do fail means the car is likely to be scrapped, which means more cars have to be made, which makes the government even more money)

/rant
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mezuk04
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Post by mezuk04 »

I think ive been told :cry:

I agree with your statement entirely but I also am for the additional extra, I'm not quite sure how I would react and of course react positively if I ever did lose control of the car and try to minimise the end result (Death being the worst).

I would like to think that if that event ever occured there is something underneath me that is going to help me out a little....That goes for my own experience with driving (4 years and 20yrs old) but I would dread to think my gf's reaction if she were in the same situation.
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fastandfurryous
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Post by fastandfurryous »

mezuk04 wrote:I think ive been told :cry:
No No! that's just my personal opinion! Some people agree with having electronic control in their cars. Just not me!

Personally, I think everyone should have to drive a 1960's car with drum brakes all round for at least 2 months before they can drive anything else. Oh, and also ride a motorbike, and then drive a 7.5 tonne lorry.

Then maybe road users will actually be able to appreciate that they aren't the only person on the road, and that driving is a skill which should be developed, rather than something you just do to get to work.
mezuk04 wrote:I would dread to think my gf's reaction if she were in the same situation.
In that case, rather than spending £200 on an ESP system, why not spend £60 each for you and your girlfriend to have a day at a skid pan. You'll learn how to control a car properly in various different skid situations, and will have a far better understanding of what's going on with the car. Plus, this is a skill that you can then take with you no matter what car you're driving.

I did this when I was 17, not long after passing my test, and it was invaluable. I've been back twice since to keep my car handling skills reasonably sharp. When you've caught a LWB van from skidding off the road on black ice, you realise just how well that money was invested!
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Post by bxbodger »

If they make cars safer then I'm all for them- look at the furore when compulsory seatbelt wearing was introduced, all those people who thought they could react quickly and brace themselves :roll:
It was the same with ABS- drivers who thought they were better and faster than the computer and valve block.

Most of the modern systems just sit in the background, drivers now don't even know they are there- they don't put ABS badges on the boot lid anymore!!

When mrs Bodger is out in the Kia, she has no idea there's ABS,EBA,explosive belt pretensioners and all the rest of it- the only thing she knows is not to put the littlest one in the front because of the airbags, and its the same with most people now.

You cannot legislate for the fool who will pull out in front of you,the child who runs into the road, or the HGV which loses its load in front of you- no matter how good you are.Modern systems greatly improve your chances of survivability or avoiding the kid in the road.

I have a Sixties car, and, believe me, if we went back to those safety standards, the death rate would go shooting back up to the level it was in those days!!
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Post by fastandfurryous »

bxbodger wrote:I have a Sixties car, and, believe me, if we went back to those safety standards, the death rate would go shooting back up to the level it was in those days!!
But... only if people continue to drive in the manner they do a the moment. If drivers were better educated, and had better car control skills, it wouldn't be a problem.

After all, which would you rather have in the car behind you on the road?

#1 A safe, sensible driver, who knows his limits, and those of the car, in a MK1 ford escort with static belts, no airbags, non-servo drum brakes, and no electronics whatsoever.

Or

#2 A dickhead driver, who drives too close, hasn't got half-a-clue how to drive, and couldn't care less, in a brand new Ford Focus, with every single safety feature under the sun.

I know for sure which I'd rather have.

Obviosuly, the best situation is with Driver #1 in car #2, but how often does that happen?
and if you were to put driver #2 in car #1 he might actually realise he's a dickhead.
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Post by Kowalski »

What that video shows is that the handling of that particular Honda Civic is dangerous, it needs the ESP. The previous video that we saw with the XM showed that a car without ESP can do that sort of slalom safely.

I'm all for the electronic gadgets like ESP, they improve safety for the majority of drivers especially those lacking skills but they have to fail in a way that is safe, the car has to be safe to drive with or without the gadget. ABS fails safe, you have non-ABS brakes when the system stops working. If a car NEEDS ESP to have safe handling, it isn't failsafe.
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fastandfurryous
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Post by fastandfurryous »

Kowalski wrote:What that video shows is that the handling of that particular Honda Civic is dangerous, it needs the ESP.
Absolutely!

Noted by the fact that I've had to make a very similar avoiding swerve in the past to avoid a deer. In a 1982 Fiat X1/9. A car that doesn't even have electronic ignition, never mind ESP. And it was at 70mph. 20mph faster than their swerve test. Result? fully under control all the way. No hint of spinning out of control.

The problem with modern cars is that it's massively cheaper to use electronic control on cheaply designed suspension than it is to design it right in the first place.
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Post by bxbodger »

and if you were to put driver #2 in car #1 he might actually realise he's a dickhead.
Probably only at the moment of impact, by which time it'd be too late!!

What I'm saying is that electronics can just give that edge that makes the difference between a severe impact and a very scarey near miss.

The more variables that are taken out of the drivers hands at these moments, the better as with the best will in the world the average driver will panic, slam the brakes on, and slew the wheel- the abs/ebd will allow the car to steer round the obstacle, and the esp will help prevent a rollover.

With no electronics thats a lock-up and a rollover, or an uncontrolled slide straight into whatever's in front.


None of this stuff was around in the sixties, but presumeably we had the same mix of drivers i.e. sensible,stupid,inattentive,safe,distracted,bonkers,etc. Only the cars were different. The sixties was the peak period of road-deaths in the UK-1966 the highest year ever with just under 8000, now its around 3500 I think,although we do loads more miles.

Much of that can be put down to seatbelts, but its no coincidence that deaths during the last few years have really taken a drop with the advent of electronic assistance systems.
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Post by PowerLee »

Kowalski wrote:What that video shows is that the handling of that particular Honda Civic is dangerous, it needs the ESP. The previous video that we saw with the XM showed that a car without ESP can do that sort of slalom safely.

I'm all for the electronic gadgets like ESP, they improve safety for the majority of drivers especially those lacking skills but they have to fail in a way that is safe, the car has to be safe to drive with or without the gadget. ABS fails safe, you have non-ABS brakes when the system stops working. If a car NEEDS ESP to have safe handling, it isn't failsafe.
The handling of that Honda Civic is very :shock:

On the ABS failing safe you are correct, Unless its that god awful crap Bendix ABS system that the early 405s & other PSA cars got, If that fails you have NO brakes at all :shock:

Nearly all have either been scrapped, written off or had the system totally removed.

Im for ESP as standard.

Modern electronic safety systems on cars are very good now.

Even the newer ABS systems work fine in the snow, They are no longer the danger they where just 10 years ago.

The EBD systems have replaced the rear brake compensator valves that always give trouble & the EBA system has really helped reduce braking distances in an emergency stop situation.

Most drivers don't even realise that there car has an electronic safety system fitted.

I took a mate of mine a year & having to do an emergency stop to realise her car had ABS.

Modern car electronic safety systems are good, The E.U. need to change the law & make ESP standard on all new cars just like ABS is now.
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Post by tomsheppard »

No. The electronics do more harm than good. ESP is there to compensate for design deficiencies and ABS with power steering are there because of the fashion for overwide tyres. Once the car is 250Kg heavier with all the safety equipment, it becomes harder to move, harder to stop and harder to manoevre. All the wrong answers.
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Post by Sl4yer »

Hmm.... "Go on! Full power! Lift off! Swerve!"

And the car skids out of control! Big surprise! It does appear to handle particularly badly without ESP as well....

I don't have a problem if it is fitted as standard. But it will take more than a few stupid manoeuvers at daft speeds on a test track to convince me that it should be compulsory.

Will it encourage people to drive too fast, relying on the system to get them out of trouble? Probably. And on a wet or icy road, no ESP system will save you if you're driving like an idiot.

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Post by bxbodger »

I don't think the electronic gear adds much in the way of excess weight to modern cars- aircon is probably the main culprit: a lot of extra weight to no extra purpose, yet like PAS in even the smallest hatchbacks it seems to be more or less standard and expected now, neccessary or not.

That plus all the extra bits of trim they seem to cram in now- drawers under seats, complex multiple seat folding mechanisms, that sort of thing.

It all adds up to pile on the pounds........
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Post by Stewart(oily) »

Then theres the issue of computer hackers attacking the on board software, its happening now, how about full rear brakes in a turn? or maybe just on one side of the car, that ought to be interesting.I believe some Lexus models have been got at in the states. I tried out the older ABS system on a snow covered car park last winter, novel!
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Post by reblack68 »

I think that video was showing a worst case scenario of driver skill, driving style and car. It's hard to assess the Honda's handling without driving it but it looks pretty appalling, with or without the ESP turned on.

Instead of making manufacturers fit ESP they should be required to make their cars pass the moose test without any kind of electronic assistance. Only when they have built a car with acceptable handling characteristics should they be allowed to enhance them electronically.

I have driven cars where the geometry is well designed and cars where it isn't. In an old Mini I once swerved to avoid a cat when I was already going round a sharpish corner at 60mph with no complaints from the car. A similar manoeuvre in a straight line in a Mazda 323 (1981 model) took four lanes and several hundred yards of a, thankfully empty, motorway to regain control. I never tried making a sudden move in a Mazda again.

I would rather have drivers who can drive. It's nothing to do with skill, some of the most skilled drivers on the road are the most dangerous, it's about knowing your limits and staying within them.
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