Lower Ball Joint, Bearings, AntiRollbar Link??? -=thunk=-

doofah · Post by **doofah** » 23 Apr 2006, 12:18

Hi Guys

I'm hoping you guys will be better at diagnosing this than the two people who claim to know what they're doing but can't agree lol

Several months ago I had an antirollbar link replaced - because of a rattling knocking that sounded similar to a marble in a matchbox being shaken on a washing machine.

All was good, but the knocking returned about a week ago - this time it seems to be more closely linked to potholes and speedbumps though - any uneven ground will set it off in an epileptic rattling frenzy that worries even the most deaf passengers

This time I jacked the car up myself, popped axle stands under and got my hands dirty...

Knowing very little about the 'bits' I was moving about, I enlisted the help of a friend who's done a couple of basic mechanics courses but I trust his diagnosis like I trust politicians after his attempt at servicing my brakes months back.... essentially meant redoing the entire set all over again, after finding myself with no handbrake, a very clumsy footbrake, and more grumbling, grinding and knocking than it'd had before the new parts were fitted!

Anyway, I explained, and showed him the 'symptoms' and then we decided to get into finding the problem.

With the car jacked up there is movement of the front driver-side wheel hub at the lower ball joint.. If I push upwards from the front, to simulate, say, driving over a speed bump.. the lower ball joint appears loose with definate play (about 3mm - 5mm of movement).

The ARBL is very free-moving when it comes to rotation, you can rotate it with the slightest push with a single finger, but otherwise 'LOOKS' fine... according to him, though I know you can't tell easily with those things

Also, after being told to look for it (a grinding noise sometimes when driving) I've noticed a very light grinding noise on tighter turns, though I figured in the past it was the pesky handbrake cable rubbing.

Now...

I asked my 'friend' what he thought the problem was and he said, "Obviously the lower ball joint is kerrrrrrrrrnackered, get a new one and I'll help you fit it if you have a haynes manual and a splitter" (I don't have a splitter)

Then I took the car to someone who up until last year worked in a garage and has more tools than Halfords, and asked if he could take a look...

"I think its your bearings... That'll be a bugger of a job, I hate citroens... But if you go get the new ones, I'll do both sides next week"

So I called the people who did the ARBL before and asked them if they can get the car in for a look, no... we're busy, but it sounds like the ARBL, it could make the ball joint appear loose...

ARGH!

I'm getting better at diving in where normally I'd panic and call for help (redid my brakes, front and back without assistance except when bleeding - proud, just wish they would actually stop the car....... just kidding) but when everyone gives me a different diagnosis, it doesn't help me at all!!

So my questions...

Based on experience, would you say its feasible that bearings or ARBL would give so much play on the lower ball joint?

Haynes book of lies speaks of special tools for both Bearings and Ball Joint, are they essential or would a mechanic simply ignore them anyway?

The current concensus is to do all three and be done with it, but obviously, if I can get a dead cert answer from people who know citroens, I'll get that one hit first, and then move on if the problem isn't solved... which would you do first??

Thanks, for this and all the other useful info I keep gleaning from here!!

Doofs

Stewart(oily) · Post by **Stewart(oily)** » 23 Apr 2006, 12:26

Play down there could be either bearings or bottom balljoint, when I did mine the easier option was to get the hub carrier off and do the bearings and the balljoint at the same time, while its in bits you can feel the roll bar link easily too, it saves stripping it twice and all possibilities are covered, re balljoint splitter the wedge type bugger up the rubbers but are cheap and if you are replacing the joints anyway why not.
Stewart

andmcit · Post by **andmcit** » 23 Apr 2006, 12:35

Simply put - there should be no longitudinal play on the ball of the bottom balljoint - so yes, this is duff on the car.

The movement/play you need to look out for on the droplink is again up and down on the ball - if there's none here which may be unlikely if it's new then the play is likely the strut top...

Clicking on lock is classic duff CV joint!

Andrew

doofah · Post by **doofah** » 23 Apr 2006, 14:15

Thanks guys

The noise on turning isn't a clicking, more a grinding, same noise my brakes liked to make when they were warn but without the feel through the wheel and pedal...

I guess this too would suggest bearings? They did squeal a little on sharp corners at slow speed a while back but it passed within a week, so I deliberately forgot all about it

I guess I'll ask him to do both the bearings and the ball joint, and take the opportunity to have a good look around the suspension while its on the ramp.

Thanks again!

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 24 Apr 2006, 13:34

if you undo the hub nut and disconect the lower swivel from the lower arm,remove the front brake pads you then can easily check your bearings for noise/smoothness and lower swivel for play,rather than spending lots of dosh in a trial and erour frenzy
regards malcolm

Keith J · Post by **Keith J** » 24 Apr 2006, 14:30

If you do the lower ball joint (I did mine about 3 weeks ago), you may find it a pig to undo. I did mine with the car jacked up and on stands. First split the lower arm from the ball joint using a ball joint seperator, or the jaws of a large spanner at a pinch. You will probably need a cold chisel and hammer (also your big book of swear words), to undo the old ball joint (I did). A new ball joint cost me less than £6.00 inc Vat from my motor factor. Screw the new ball joint in and this is where you need the famous special tool No: SX027. Available here (it's just over £8.00 inc postage & Vat).

http://www.britishminiclub.co.uk/tools/ ... Tools.html

You need to do it up REALLY tight, (someone here suggested 150ft/lbs). You will probably need a bit of scaffold bar on your spanner/socket/wrench. Get someone to hold the steering wheel as you tighten it up so you don't strain the steering by wrenching it on full lock. Once that's done put the lower arm on the balljoint spindle. Do up the nut and put the wheel back on. Presto. You may find that this is all that you need to do. If it all goes smoothly it won't take long. Less than an hour. Others may take the whole hub off, I didn't, this is based on my experience of doing the job. Have fun.

vanny · Post by **vanny** » 24 Apr 2006, 17:11

while more than likley not of use, i'v ehad similar problems with the BX and having done the drop link, the bottom ball joint, the bearings, the discs and pads i still have the stupid clunking about over speed bumps and pot holes. Through the winter it's got much worse and turns out that its the bottom engine mount, its quite notably buggered on inspection!

While you'd probably notice the mount being out, mgiht be worth a quick eye and rule it out!

andmcit · Post by **andmcit** » 24 Apr 2006, 17:19

...and don't forget the lower wishbone bushes and top stut wear...

doofah · Post by **doofah** » 24 Apr 2006, 17:38

Thanks again,

unfortunately I have neither the tools nor confidence to check the bearings myself, but we've had a good look at everything we can get at.

Of course the guy who's going to do the work for me at the weekend won't replace the bearings if they don't need doing, I should be able to return the unused ones if so

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 24 Apr 2006, 19:14

the torque setting is not 150 1bft its more like 52ish,and just mind when undoing and tightening up you dont bend the track rod or pull the driveshaft inner joint apart
regards malcolm

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 24 Apr 2006, 20:29

Hmmmm heres another.. just chasing Vannys post..

My partner has a 309 D, and theres an awfull clunk taking up drive and backing off onto over run... You can feel it on the bulkhead ahead of the clutch pedal.. So I though, bottom engine mount.. I had to replace drive shaft anyway.. So I changed bottom mount at same time to one I KNOW was ok.. But upon retrying.. It STILL Thumps!!

Could WELL be, the anti roll bar bushes perished..

But there we are.. It cruises perfectly, so we'll see what happens at MOT time.

citroenxm

paulbx · Post by **paulbx** » 26 Apr 2006, 15:34

On my old BX that was loose and caused horrible clunks . When I ay loose I mean by no more than 2 turns. These bolts are very tight and are under the front carpets - you'll need a friend with a spanner underneath the car (safely supported etc_)
These bolts must be extremely tight to prevent clunks over bumps - and normally these can be felt in the steering wheel.

I also fixed drop links - a metallic clonk over bumps,

Front Wishbone bushes - more of a Clank over same!

PaulB

doofah · Post by **doofah** » 30 Apr 2006, 09:56

Hey guys

Well, the ball joint was completely wasted. Took a whole day to get it out, but eventually the damned thing came and the new one was fitted.

And the looseness of the wheel appeared to be solved.....

And yet the rattle remains - when driving over uneven ground... and a nice light 'thunk' when I hit speed bumps... mostly noticeable at slow speeds and when riding the brakes down hills.

I'm inclined to say one of the anti roll bar links now, given the amount of damage to the lower ball joint, something has got to have been taking all that strain, but still, i'm not an expert... lol... I'll keep you guys updated, today I'm gonna go back out there, have a good route around (now that the ball joint is fixed - surely the other problem will be more evident?)

[grumbles] and so it rains!

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 30 Apr 2006, 10:14

citronut wrote:the torque setting is not 150 1bft its more like 52ish,and just mind when undoing and tightening up you dont bend the track rod or pull the driveshaft inner joint apart
regards malcolm

Actually the torque for screwing the lower balljoint INTO the housing is about 150 lb/ft. It's the torque for the nut that connects the lower arm to the balljoint that is much less.... under 50 lb/ft.

I don't have the exact figures in front of me at the moment as I don't have the books here, but its definately much more than 50 for the balljoint into the housing...

Regards,
Simon

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 30 Apr 2006, 15:59

Mandrake wrote:
citronut wrote:the torque setting is not 150 1bft its more like 52ish,and just mind when undoing and tightening up you dont bend the track rod or pull the driveshaft inner joint apart
regards malcolm
Actually the torque for screwing the lower balljoint INTO the housing is about 150 lb/ft. It's the torque for the nut that connects the lower arm to the balljoint that is much less.... under 50 lb/ft.

I don't have the exact figures in front of me at the moment as I don't have the books here, but its definately much more than 50 for the balljoint into the housing...

Regards,
Simon

as you say simon you dont have your books to hand,me to but im prity sure they are only 52ish as you are ment to peen them over as well,i will stand to be corected if im wrong
regards malcolm

French Car Forum

Lower Ball Joint, Bearings, AntiRollbar Link??? -=thunk=-

Lower Ball Joint, Bearings, AntiRollbar Link??? -=thunk=-

Don't forget the front subframe