How do you guys raise and support your Xantia's?
There will be times when people haven't got ramps or inspection pits or fancy drive up high ramps, so using just the suspension, the provided jack, a hydraulic floor jack (which may be too low), axel stands and maybe some blocks of hefty wood... what are the best scenarios for safety and practicality in achieving the car off the ground front/rear/sides/both/all?
Jacking the car by first raising the suspension, then jacking up the relevant corner. Can you do this four times to get the car quite high off the ground? OR is it better some other way. Is there a special pattern to jacking then supporting (like front first, then rear, or left rear, then left right, or diagonally)?
Where exactly is the best place to put axel stands (is the axel too obvious an answer?) / Supports? I may use some hefty blocks of wood.
Plan is to raise it up as high as i can without a professional lift/ramps. I do have ramps that are maybe 6 inches high, then with the cars height on max another 6 inches, but obviously the cars suspension could collapse. Place axel stands under somewhere while car is on high on the ramps could do the trick, but the problem is then the rear is not up or vice versa, depending on the scenario (for instance you may want the car level to check oil levels while it's (the car) high up)
Also, (let me try to word this well), if we raise the car up, then jack it up and put axel stands under it, and then lower the car will this bring the wheels up? or does it rely on some body weight to bring it down to the floor (mainly for depressurising, but also for diagnostic movements for some reason or another)? I assume the car is too low to try to jack it up on the lowest setting.
Could you please let me know your thought and experiences on this issue. Any tips will be put to the test.
Also someone please re-itterate the SAFETY CONCERNS on these cars, it will be a good remainer for us all, especially under the various scenarios that will (i hope) be discussed in thread.
Thanks.
supporting / raising xantias
Moderator: RichardW
As long as the supension is working - it is by far the easiest option first setting the supension to highest.
Firstly a general warning : NEVER lift a car in one corner only. If ever done only do it to barely lift the associated wheel off ground.
ALWAYS block the pair of wheels resting on ground with blocks - in both directions.
On both my CX and BX I always use the rear subframe cross tube to lift on (mid point) and then supporting chassis on both sides rear jacking points. Always use pieces of hard wood to equal out any height difference between sides before resting on the jacks.
On the front I use a selfmade timber crossmember to have the ends lift under both control arm's pivot points. NEVER lift on subframe midpoint. It will bend. Instead I have the hydraulic jack midpoint under the timber.
Depending on what kind of job I'm about to do on the car - I'd choose to rest the wheels on car ramps. I NEVER drive the car up the ramps - beacuse of a really nasty accident I had years ago doing so
Firstly a general warning : NEVER lift a car in one corner only. If ever done only do it to barely lift the associated wheel off ground.
ALWAYS block the pair of wheels resting on ground with blocks - in both directions.
On both my CX and BX I always use the rear subframe cross tube to lift on (mid point) and then supporting chassis on both sides rear jacking points. Always use pieces of hard wood to equal out any height difference between sides before resting on the jacks.
On the front I use a selfmade timber crossmember to have the ends lift under both control arm's pivot points. NEVER lift on subframe midpoint. It will bend. Instead I have the hydraulic jack midpoint under the timber.
Depending on what kind of job I'm about to do on the car - I'd choose to rest the wheels on car ramps. I NEVER drive the car up the ramps - beacuse of a really nasty accident I had years ago doing so
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
deian,
It really depends on what kind of work you're trying to do, at what location on the car.
Rarely do you need (or want) to lift all 4 corners off the ground at the same time, and in fact by doing so you are making the car much less stable.
I know you said you don't have any drive on ramps, but if you are thinking of doing a lot of DIY on a Citroen you really should get some.
You don't need big long full length ones, the ones I use are just short ones about a metre long that allow one end of the car or the other to be driven up onto.
Typically I would raise the suspension slightly, (to stop the front bumper scraping on the corners of the ramp) drive the front wheels up onto the ramp until the wheels are on the level section and reach the limit stops on the ramps (having someone guiding you here helps) and then put the hand brake on, lower the suspension fully, and block behind and in front of both rear wheels.
There is now enough room to work under the front of the car even with the suspension right down without getting squashed, so the car cannot possibly fall any further as the suspension is already right down. It can't roll away because of the blocking, and with good ramps there is excellent side stability - you can shake the car in any direction and it wont wobble.
To work on the rear of the car you just back the rear up instead.
If I'm doing work that requires taking a wheel off instead (such as brake pads) then instead of using the ramp I do:
Lift suspension height fully, block the other 3 wheels in front and behind, loosen wheel nuts, use a hydraulic floor jack under the nearest suspension chassis structural point to lift that wheel off the ground. (but don't go TOO far, as Anders says, otherwise you put a lot of torsional stress on the body)
I then insert an axle stand under another nearby suspension chassis structural point and adjust the floor jack so they are both sharing the load.
By doing this if the floor jack should suddenly fail, the axle stand will continue to support the car.
Because the other 3 wheels are still on the ground, you still have good sideways stability - the car wont be able to wobble sideways and fall off the jack.
If you need two or more wheels off the ground at the same time, (and lets be honest, there are not many jobs that actually NEED this) that is when you start to run into stability problems - for example if you have both front wheels off, and have axle stands supporting the front, there is now very little sideways stability, even if you have the rear wheels blocked.
Give the front a good shove sideways, and the axle stands may tip over, allowing the car to fall on you. (Stacked blocks of wood are even MORE likely to tip over) This is a VERY common scenario for people to injure/kill themselves as they don't realise how unstable the car is supported only by stands at one end.
There should NEVER be a reason that you would need all 4 corners on axle stands off the ground at the same time for normal DIY work, this is NOT safe using normal axle stands or blocks of wood or anything like that. It can only be done using specialised supports that are designed for the job. (Like rails used by body straighteners)
I think the key to doing a safe job is treat each job on a case by case basis, and work out what the minimum amount of removed support is and the safest possible way of doing it.
For example if you want to bleed the rear brakes the temptation is to just jack it up in the middle to remove both wheels at once, and in fact a number of forum members recommend that method.
But you should ask yourself, do I really NEED both wheels off the ground ? The answer is no, you can easily do them one at a time, and having the 3rd extra wheel on the ground gives you a great deal more safety and stability. (It doesn't really take any longer either)
Regards,
Simon
It really depends on what kind of work you're trying to do, at what location on the car.
Rarely do you need (or want) to lift all 4 corners off the ground at the same time, and in fact by doing so you are making the car much less stable.
I know you said you don't have any drive on ramps, but if you are thinking of doing a lot of DIY on a Citroen you really should get some.
You don't need big long full length ones, the ones I use are just short ones about a metre long that allow one end of the car or the other to be driven up onto.
Typically I would raise the suspension slightly, (to stop the front bumper scraping on the corners of the ramp) drive the front wheels up onto the ramp until the wheels are on the level section and reach the limit stops on the ramps (having someone guiding you here helps) and then put the hand brake on, lower the suspension fully, and block behind and in front of both rear wheels.
There is now enough room to work under the front of the car even with the suspension right down without getting squashed, so the car cannot possibly fall any further as the suspension is already right down. It can't roll away because of the blocking, and with good ramps there is excellent side stability - you can shake the car in any direction and it wont wobble.
To work on the rear of the car you just back the rear up instead.
If I'm doing work that requires taking a wheel off instead (such as brake pads) then instead of using the ramp I do:
Lift suspension height fully, block the other 3 wheels in front and behind, loosen wheel nuts, use a hydraulic floor jack under the nearest suspension chassis structural point to lift that wheel off the ground. (but don't go TOO far, as Anders says, otherwise you put a lot of torsional stress on the body)
I then insert an axle stand under another nearby suspension chassis structural point and adjust the floor jack so they are both sharing the load.
By doing this if the floor jack should suddenly fail, the axle stand will continue to support the car.
Because the other 3 wheels are still on the ground, you still have good sideways stability - the car wont be able to wobble sideways and fall off the jack.
If you need two or more wheels off the ground at the same time, (and lets be honest, there are not many jobs that actually NEED this) that is when you start to run into stability problems - for example if you have both front wheels off, and have axle stands supporting the front, there is now very little sideways stability, even if you have the rear wheels blocked.
Give the front a good shove sideways, and the axle stands may tip over, allowing the car to fall on you. (Stacked blocks of wood are even MORE likely to tip over) This is a VERY common scenario for people to injure/kill themselves as they don't realise how unstable the car is supported only by stands at one end.
There should NEVER be a reason that you would need all 4 corners on axle stands off the ground at the same time for normal DIY work, this is NOT safe using normal axle stands or blocks of wood or anything like that. It can only be done using specialised supports that are designed for the job. (Like rails used by body straighteners)
I think the key to doing a safe job is treat each job on a case by case basis, and work out what the minimum amount of removed support is and the safest possible way of doing it.
For example if you want to bleed the rear brakes the temptation is to just jack it up in the middle to remove both wheels at once, and in fact a number of forum members recommend that method.
But you should ask yourself, do I really NEED both wheels off the ground ? The answer is no, you can easily do them one at a time, and having the 3rd extra wheel on the ground gives you a great deal more safety and stability. (It doesn't really take any longer either)
Regards,
Simon
Simon
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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Kowalski
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Ex 97 Xantia 1.9TD SX 144k
Ex 94 Xantia Dimension 1.9TD 199k
I do have to admit that I jack my Xantia off the centre of the front subframe, it is rather substantially built and I have no concerns about bending it, in any case I have a block of wood to go on the jack so the flat of the wood contacts the subframe rather than point loads around the edges of the cup on the jack. At the rear, I have jacked off the rear subframe, at the point where the tie bar bolts to it, it again is strong around that region and I've had no problems with bending there either.
The thing I have found, jacking up the Xantia with the suspension set to high is that you end up with two wheels on the floor and two in the air because of the stiffness of the suspension. If I jack off a front jacking point, that side of the car comes off the ground, where as if I jack off a rear jacking point, the pair of rear wheels come off the ground. To change a wheel in the manner recommended in the handbook , you have to set the suspension to high and jack off a jacking point. The manufacturer has decided that it is ok to have the car balanced on two wheels and the jack when you're changing a tyre, so the chassis has to cope with this sort of torsional load (which is a fairly extreme load).
I tend to use wooden blocks to chock the car when I'm working on it, typically they go under the jacking points. The wooden blocks I use aren't really wooden blocks, they're elm logs which are oval in section going from about 8inches to a foot in diamter. With the suspension set to high they just fit under the jacking points, if I jack up the car I've got some smaller (but still quite substantial) wooden blocks to make up the additional height needed.
There is nothing wrong with wooden blocks as long as they are large enough to be up to the job, and by large enough, I mean you want the at least the same base area that you would get with the axle stands. I would contend that my wooden blocks give better stability than a typical automotive axle stand. Wooden blocks are rather a lot better than concrete blocks or bricks which should NEVER be used to support a car, not even temporarilly. All bricks and concrete blocks can be used for is chocking wheels to stop the car running away.
I jack the car up (on a level hard surface, e.g. concrete or tarmac), put the blocks in then lower the car onto the wood. Jacks do leak and fail, and even with the car on a jack and a stand it is going to fall some distance if the jack is carrying the weight, if this happens axle stands can break or even go through the jacking points (more of a concern if the car is rusty). At this point I give the car a good shove, to check that it is stable, i.e. I'm not going under the car and yanking on bits of it unless I'm sure its going to stay put.
The thing I have found, jacking up the Xantia with the suspension set to high is that you end up with two wheels on the floor and two in the air because of the stiffness of the suspension. If I jack off a front jacking point, that side of the car comes off the ground, where as if I jack off a rear jacking point, the pair of rear wheels come off the ground. To change a wheel in the manner recommended in the handbook , you have to set the suspension to high and jack off a jacking point. The manufacturer has decided that it is ok to have the car balanced on two wheels and the jack when you're changing a tyre, so the chassis has to cope with this sort of torsional load (which is a fairly extreme load).
I tend to use wooden blocks to chock the car when I'm working on it, typically they go under the jacking points. The wooden blocks I use aren't really wooden blocks, they're elm logs which are oval in section going from about 8inches to a foot in diamter. With the suspension set to high they just fit under the jacking points, if I jack up the car I've got some smaller (but still quite substantial) wooden blocks to make up the additional height needed.
There is nothing wrong with wooden blocks as long as they are large enough to be up to the job, and by large enough, I mean you want the at least the same base area that you would get with the axle stands. I would contend that my wooden blocks give better stability than a typical automotive axle stand. Wooden blocks are rather a lot better than concrete blocks or bricks which should NEVER be used to support a car, not even temporarilly. All bricks and concrete blocks can be used for is chocking wheels to stop the car running away.
I jack the car up (on a level hard surface, e.g. concrete or tarmac), put the blocks in then lower the car onto the wood. Jacks do leak and fail, and even with the car on a jack and a stand it is going to fall some distance if the jack is carrying the weight, if this happens axle stands can break or even go through the jacking points (more of a concern if the car is rusty). At this point I give the car a good shove, to check that it is stable, i.e. I'm not going under the car and yanking on bits of it unless I'm sure its going to stay put.
Just to clarify my comments about two wheels off the ground at once not being a good idea, I was thinking of two wheels at the same end of the car, eg both front wheels or both rear wheels.Kowalski wrote:The thing I have found, jacking up the Xantia with the suspension set to high is that you end up with two wheels on the floor and two in the air because of the stiffness of the suspension. If I jack off a front jacking point, that side of the car comes off the ground, where as if I jack off a rear jacking point, the pair of rear wheels come off the ground. To change a wheel in the manner recommended in the handbook , you have to set the suspension to high and jack off a jacking point. The manufacturer has decided that it is ok to have the car balanced on two wheels and the jack when you're changing a tyre, so the chassis has to cope with this sort of torsional load (which is a fairly extreme load).
This is a somewhat unstable position as that end of the car can easily move sideways with the rolling of the remaining two wheels acting as a pivoting point, even if they're blocked. (They only need to move slightly to cause an axle stand to fall over sideways at the other end of the car)
On the other hand lifting both wheels on the same side, for example both left wheels or both right wheels is still a stable condition provided the opposite wheels are blocked. The two opposite wheels will prevent the car moving in such a way that would tip over the support.
By the way, changing a wheel is a bit different to lying underneath the car and pulling on spanners
while I trust the supplied wheel jack enough to change a wheel, I don't trust it enough to support the car whilst going under it, regardless of whether its located in a stable location...Regards,
Simon
Simon
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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Richard Gallagher
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Good tip richard, i like that one, my tip for this one is to make sure the ground it level and flat, our drive here at home is not the flatest (smooth), in which case i use a thin but strong piece of wood to give the jack some area to share the load out, also in case a piece of concrete snaps off.
Something I'd still like clarification about is... if we raise the car's suspension, then jack it up (wheel/s off the ground), and then lower the suspension (depressurise) or it lowers by itself, what happens? do they wheels go up, or does it need the weight of the car to fully depressurise?
thanks
Something I'd still like clarification about is... if we raise the car's suspension, then jack it up (wheel/s off the ground), and then lower the suspension (depressurise) or it lowers by itself, what happens? do they wheels go up, or does it need the weight of the car to fully depressurise?
thanks
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BonceChops
- Posts: 449
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- Location: North West UK
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They go up. It looks funny to people who have not seen it before but it will lift the wheels of the ground and into the wheel arches.deian wrote:Something I'd still like clarification about is... if we raise the car's suspension, then jack it up (wheel/s off the ground), and then lower the suspension (depressurise) or it lowers by itself, what happens? do they wheels go up, or does it need the weight of the car to fully depressurise?
thanks
Neil
Now Citrtoenless
Now Citrtoenless
coooooool 
...
i've had a truly awesome idea... u get four (home mechanic) car ramps, raise the car up, put them under the wheels, all four, and drive up, then support with (glass) axel stands, then when you 'lower' the car, the wheels come off the ramps and u got all four wheels off the ground (levitated), and again bob is indeed your uncle.
i know someone here will spoil my plan, go on, do it
... seriosuly though, is it a good plan ?
Thanks
...i've had a truly awesome idea... u get four (home mechanic) car ramps, raise the car up, put them under the wheels, all four, and drive up, then support with (glass) axel stands, then when you 'lower' the car, the wheels come off the ramps and u got all four wheels off the ground (levitated), and again bob is indeed your uncle.
i know someone here will spoil my plan, go on, do it
... seriosuly though, is it a good plan ?Thanks
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DoubleChevron
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Hi Guys,
I just use a set of really dodgy home made ramps
These scrap metal, bed frames and all sorts of stuff in them 
seeya,
Shane L.
I just use a set of really dodgy home made ramps
These scrap metal, bed frames and all sorts of stuff in them seeya,
Shane L.
'96 Big BX 2.1TD exclusive slugomatic (aka XM)
'85 CX2500 GTi Turbo Series II (whoo hooo)
'96 Xantia VSX slugomatic (sold !!)
and of course, lots of old Citroens, slowly rusting away in pieces
'85 CX2500 GTi Turbo Series II (whoo hooo)
'96 Xantia VSX slugomatic (sold !!)
and of course, lots of old Citroens, slowly rusting away in pieces
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
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- x 2
Your car hasn't got enough power and nor would it have the grip to raise all four wheels up a 35 degree slope at the same time, even if you could get two of the ramps under the sill wich I very much doubt.
Persuing ideas like this are bound to end in tears.
Raising a side or an end can be done safely, raising both ends is dangerous because you will be starting the lift on an area that is allready at an angle.
Dave
Persuing ideas like this are bound to end in tears.
Raising a side or an end can be done safely, raising both ends is dangerous because you will be starting the lift on an area that is allready at an angle.
Dave
Apart from what Dave has said about the ramps, if you let all the wheels hang down and "lower" the suspension, the wheels will NOT magically lift up off the ground. They can't, because the hydraulic rams are only single acting rams, they can only push, not pull.deian wrote:coooooool
i've had a truly awesome idea... u get four (home mechanic) car ramps, raise the car up, put them under the wheels, all four, and drive up, then support with (glass) axel stands, then when you 'lower' the car, the wheels come off the ramps and u got all four wheels off the ground (levitated), and again bob is indeed your uncle.
i know someone here will spoil my plan, go on, do it
Thanks
(Well, you might get an inch or so of movement as the limit stop rubber blocks decompress, but it certainly wont lift them far)
The only way a wheel can retract itself any distance when you lower the suspension is if the wheel on the other side of the car is on the ground with some weight on it - in that case the weight on that side of the car compresses the suspension on that side, and the rollbar lifts the opposite wheel which is hanging free - right up into the top of the wheel arch if the other side goes right down to the ground...
This is what happens when you do a wheel change as described in the owners manual...
Regards,
Simon
Simon
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
I seem to remember we once had an extensive disussion on this wheels retraction issue 8)Mandrake wrote:Apart from what Dave has said about the ramps, if you let all the wheels hang down and "lower" the suspension, the wheels will NOT magically lift up off the ground. They can't, because the hydraulic rams are only single acting rams, they can only push, not pull.deian wrote:coooooool
i've had a truly awesome idea... u get four (home mechanic) car ramps, raise the car up, put them under the wheels, all four, and drive up, then support with (glass) axel stands, then when you 'lower' the car, the wheels come off the ramps and u got all four wheels off the ground (levitated), and again bob is indeed your uncle.
i know someone here will spoil my plan, go on, do it
Thanks
(Well, you might get an inch or so of movement as the limit stop rubber blocks decompress, but it certainly wont lift them far)
The only way a wheel can retract itself any distance when you lower the suspension is if the wheel on the other side of the car is on the ground with some weight on it - in that case the weight on that side of the car compresses the suspension on that side, and the rollbar lifts the opposite wheel which is hanging free - right up into the top of the wheel arch if the other side goes right down to the ground...
This is what happens when you do a wheel change as described in the owners manual...
Regards,
Simon
It is exactly as you describe it Simon ...
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
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DoubleChevron
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I think the best option bar none is a 4post hoist .... Yeah I know I can't afford one either.
2nd best if you don't have kids would have to be a pit. The upside being it'll only take you a weekend to dig the hole, box it up and concrete it...... Negative being, they always leak and fill with water, and kids tend to fall into them. There still better than ramps though as the car is sitting on solid ground, and anyone can park over a pit, with ramps though, you must drive up them anytime you want to park in the shed.
When/if I build my next shed, I'll dig a pit in it, I'll try triple layers of plastic under the concrette to keep it water tight (but I still don't have much faith).
Next best is a combination of a set of small ramps and axle stands. Use Alans trick of putting a length of seat belt webbing down the ramps so you can drive up them without skidding/slipping. Lets face it, ramps and axle stands are so cheap now, you would have to be crazy to risk your life using anything less.
seeya,
Shane L.
seeya,
Shane L.
2nd best if you don't have kids would have to be a pit. The upside being it'll only take you a weekend to dig the hole, box it up and concrete it...... Negative being, they always leak and fill with water, and kids tend to fall into them. There still better than ramps though as the car is sitting on solid ground, and anyone can park over a pit, with ramps though, you must drive up them anytime you want to park in the shed.
When/if I build my next shed, I'll dig a pit in it, I'll try triple layers of plastic under the concrette to keep it water tight (but I still don't have much faith).
Next best is a combination of a set of small ramps and axle stands. Use Alans trick of putting a length of seat belt webbing down the ramps so you can drive up them without skidding/slipping. Lets face it, ramps and axle stands are so cheap now, you would have to be crazy to risk your life using anything less.
seeya,
Shane L.
seeya,
Shane L.
'96 Big BX 2.1TD exclusive slugomatic (aka XM)
'85 CX2500 GTi Turbo Series II (whoo hooo)
'96 Xantia VSX slugomatic (sold !!)
and of course, lots of old Citroens, slowly rusting away in pieces
'85 CX2500 GTi Turbo Series II (whoo hooo)
'96 Xantia VSX slugomatic (sold !!)
and of course, lots of old Citroens, slowly rusting away in pieces