Copper Washers HDi

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gwailo
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Copper Washers HDi

Post by gwailo »

Few hours ago I changed two common rail injectors on my 306 Hdi with Bosch exchange at £173 inc VAT each. Am pleased to inform the forum that it has made the 2-3k rattle signifcantly quieter. The two original injectors are probably at fault for the remaining noise. However since having had a bad time with another set of injectors and putting the originals back in without changing the copper washers, the car rattles quite a bit from idle. I put new copper washers on the new pair put in today.

The copper washer I understand actually get squeezed down after the 30NM tighting torque is applied to the clamp nut. Is reusing these washers a bad idea as they wont seal properly or the compression ratio of the engine is altered slightly by a squashed washer being used.

I propose to re-fit the two remaining original injectors with new copper washers and see if that improves the idle and low speed noise.

ANyone any thoughts on injectors and these washers in question.
christi
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Post by christi »

Peugeot 806 HDI
gwailo
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Post by gwailo »

I used 30NM each time I have changed them, but I am wondering if the idle is still a bit rough and low speed knock knock nois e is due to a poor seal and the compression ratio being effected. I will take the two old ones out and put a new washers on as a matter of course #, then carefully re tighten. The 2-3k rattle is loads better but since I put the original set back in after problem with crappy injectors and not changed washers it has always rattled straight from idle upwards.

After i put the new ones in tonight the idle at first was very smooth but after getting the engine fully warm has gone bit rough and little erratic again. Duunno why that is...
gwailo
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Post by gwailo »

Could someone have a check on their Hdi engine and tell me if my injector clamps are the right way up. There are numbers on one side but not on the other. I installed my clamps and injectors with the numbers on the underside. Just want to check that have got it right. thx
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Post by christi »

it will either seal or not seal, and, if it doesn't seal it will be obvious from the load noise that you'll get.
You definitely need a new washer every time though
the clamp has a dished side that faces upwards. there is then a convex washer that locates into the dish (convex side down) and the clamp nut goes on top
Peugeot 806 HDI
gwailo
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Post by gwailo »

I will check it once more, just thought the fact that on the clamp nut there are some serial number on one side and no numbers on the other. The numbers on mine face down when the clamp is in place. I know that my 2 old injectors have been refitted with old washers and that since doing that the car has rattled from 1000rpm and has slightly rough idle. Took it for a run last nite and must say between 2-3k is 80% better with these two recon ones from bosch. £173 inc VAT was best could do after loads of phone calls. Strangely the idle went very smooth on putting the two new ones in, then as it got fully warm went touch rough again. I am wondering whether to check the torques on the nut with the engine hot.

I did notice on one of the injectors that are to be returned to bosch that there is quite alot of black on the copper washer. I woudl expect it to be only slightly black near the hole in the washer and not over most of its underside surface. Maybe it was not sealing perfeclly . Hence the need to replace them everytime.
pugxpert
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Post by pugxpert »

use new copper washers every time,otherwise you can get chuffing noise from around injector area and if left black stuf foms quite hard around base of injector.If you change injectors on 1.4 or 1.6 (dv4/dv6) hdi you will need to get engine ecu configured for class type of injector,usually the 10 digit 96 No on top of injector. :wink:
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wheeler
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Post by wheeler »

if your going to replace all the copper washers id recomend also replacing the black plastic sleves that sit in the head,they cost pennies.
gwailo
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Post by gwailo »

thx for the replies. I took the car out for a run, got it properly hot then checked the torque on the 2 old injectors and found that I could twist them back to 30NM, so heat does effect how tight they are. Took the car out again and noticed a slight variation in noise at low revs. Seemed to knock less at lower revs but only slightly. Anyway I think I now realise the importance of using brand new washers and will pick some more up when my local dealer get them in stock again.

Another thing is that looked at my 2 new injectors and 2 old ones as they sit in the hole. It seems to me that the 2 old ones with re-used washers seem to sit deeper in the holes. The top of the plastic sleeves seem more visible on the 2 new ones with new copper washers. Best to replace the sleeves as well to be sure.
gwailo
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Post by gwailo »

Have changed the two old copper washers and put it all back together - the idle is steadier but the thing still knocks loudly from 1000rpm upwards. Dunno what to try next....becoming a real headache
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Post by rossd »

You need to try and find which cylinders are knocking. Try using a long screwdriver as a stethoscope, the blade end around the base of each injector whilst the engine is ticking over, or a fast idle speed.

It could be due to the fact you have 2 worn injectors mixed with 2 new injectors, each having slightly different charactersistics, but I doubt this as the HDi ECU can compensate for this to a certain extent.
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gwailo
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Post by gwailo »

Think is going be a case of ordering yet another exchange one from bosch. Will take the car for a good run and do the - put it on a hill test, in gear and roll down with foot off the throttle and see the noise worsens with revs then will try the screwdriver test. Was thinking is it possible to take off one of the connectors to the injector solenoid then try and detect which cylinder is knocking or will I knacker something trying that!? I suspected the low revs knock was not using new washers and bad sealing but i think now that theory is dead after changin the old pair for new ones.
wheeler
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Post by wheeler »

gwailo wrote:Was thinking is it possible to take off one of the connectors to the injector solenoid then try and detect which cylinder is knocking or will I knacker something trying that!?
NEVER disconect the injectors on an HDi engine when it is running,this can cause serious engine damage due to the possibility of it sticking open & hydraulicing the engine with too much fuel. more so affects the siemens injection system but i would still never risk it on the bosch system.
gwailo
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Post by gwailo »

Yeah. Thx wheeler....thought better of it . Ordered yet another exchange bosch injector to see if that can cure it. I did the screw driver vibration test, listening carefully to the knocking...always seems worse when the engine is properly warm. I think injector number 1 is possibly at fault so will change that one when I get the new one. Looks like will soon end up with a full new set but will the knocking from 1000rpm be better. Would say the 2-3k rattle is bit better overall.

When I bought the new copper washers, there were to#wo different part numbers corresponding to my chassis number. One was the standard part and the other was in pug dealers database as a "repair" washer - any idea what that might be for.....refitting injectors after a cylinder head job or something like that?

I disconnected the battery then reconnected. Will that re- set the ECU or need do something else to re-set ...ie press something
rossd
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Post by rossd »

To fully reset the ECU back to 'factory' settings you need to clear its memory; I do this with my laptop and KWP2000 interface, or to simply clear trouble codes an ELM interface will do. You shouldnt have to reset the ECU after simply swapping injectors of the same type though, it will soon adapt to them after a good long drive using all rev / load points (e.g lots of accelerator at high and low revs, the same for cruising etc).
2003 Xsara HDi 110 - Commuting Hack

http://www.rossy.org.uk/ - 205 Track car progress
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