Xantia suspension

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fridgedoc
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Xantia suspension

Post by fridgedoc »

Hi All

Well I've driven my LHD Xantia a few times now and I think, no I know there is something amiss, the dreaded accumulator sphere to start with
(I've bought a new one) but I could be wrong, why do I feel it's the acc sphere, well the clicking at times is only a few seconds apart but can be up to 30 sec's, done the high setting to low setting about 12 times, did not seem to make any difference, what I did notice was on the top of the pump there is a large fitting with a small fitting fitting in the centre with a pipe coming off of it, the small fitting and pipe are OK but I can see oil in the thread which moves every time the pump cuts in / out, when I move the lever from high to low the front drops straight away with a groan, the back drops slowly. I have topped up the fluid to the correct level but the level seems low in the header tank but that could be me, the fluid again seems clean and green and the brakes feel good, the ride is, how can I say.... I did have a Citroen years ago which smoothed out bumps the Xantia does not seem as smooth, I'm sorry to be a bit vague but Citroen's as you know, are different and it's a bit hard to explain, but I'm going to persevere.

The car has been serviced / repaired in France until the beginning of the year, the owner I feel did nothing himself, it starts on the button every time and runs well, clean under the bonnet apart from a small oil leak from the rocker gasket, took the tray off under the engine when I changed the oil and filter and found a small leak (oil) at the back of the gearbox, I've changed the fuel and air filter.

Have been to a breakers who has a "L" reg sx with good tyres wing mirrors (one of mine is broken) rear light clusters (one of mine is cracked)
and a few other bits and pieces sadly both the spot and fog lights lenses are broken so not worth taking them.

Gone on a bit I know, now looking for a few pointers from you knowledgeable guys, what would your course of action be?

Any assistance will be gratefully received, thank you all.
Bonne Chance

Stephen

LHD Xantia 1994 (deceased)
LHD Xantia 1995 Berline
andmcit
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Post by andmcit »

Hi Stephen. I've seen the very same pulsing of pressurised fluid around the seal under the pipe that carries high pressure LHM from the pump. I reduced the strain on the car's system by renewing the accumulator. I'd check the improvement that makes on your car first especially as you've got a new one to fit.

If you've topped the level to the correct spot on the float with the car in heigh there's no problem - remember when the car sinks down to low all the fluid will return back to the reservoir so you'll need spare room for it!!

A fresh fluid change or full flush using proper Hydraflush may help with the general movement of the hight adjustment as well as heigh ride comfort and it's likely the linkages onto the height correctors may be stiff but there may still be a need to renew the corner spheres too.

ebay will be your best answer for finding tail lamps & spots etc

Andrew
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Post by jeremy »

To check the accumulator - run engine for a couple of minutes with the car at normal height, turn it off and sit in the boot. Car should sink then after about 30 seconds rise to its original height. If it does the accumulator is OK.

You could try tightening up the pump outlet. These are not intended to be extremely tight - a reasonable pull on a normal length spanner is what is required. Too much pressure may distort the seal and makes things worse. if the accumulator is flat this will cause excessive pressure fluctuations and could be responsible for what you are seeing.

If your pump has only one outlet your car doesn't have anti-sink and will drop quite quickly. Dropping first at the front or rear depends on many factors including the load in the car. If the front struts are creaking and groaning then they may well be worn out - and unlike BX ones they cannot be overhauled (but are much stronger and last better) This could account for the ride quality but modern Citroens are firmer riding than their predecessors.
jeremy
fridgedoc
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My Xantia

Post by fridgedoc »

Hi Guys

Did not expect that quick a response....wow!!!!!!!!

There are two pipes on the pump, so must have anti sink!

I tried the sit in the boot test, which I read on this forum, sadly it did not rise hence the reason I bought the acc sphere.

I've got the rear clusters from the car at the breakers, it's just the spot/fog light I would like, he said he gets quite a few Xantia's in and will let me have first option so that's good.

I think first job is replace the acc sphere to see if that makes things better then go from there, will need to do it soon, off to France on 31st.

Thanks again guys, any further ideas/thoughts gratefully received
Bonne Chance

Stephen

LHD Xantia 1994 (deceased)
LHD Xantia 1995 Berline
fridgedoc
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moving on

Post by fridgedoc »

Hi all

Today I replaced the accumulator, straight forward enough, never done one before, kept bleeding the system, expected fluid to come out but none did, is this correct or should I keep bleeding until it does?

Did the up and down thing (can never remember the correct word) clicking seemed to decrease for a while (40 sec's) after a test run it was back to 10 sec's, did the sit in boot test, and it rose a little, before it did not rise at all, the brakes feel better and there is a whooshing sound now when I turn the steering wheel, the ride does feel different since the acc was changed, I've sprayed all I can see under the car, I have a Haynes book on its way so I will be able to see which bits I've missed I HOPE!!!!

I also adjusted the clutch, as the pedal was low and I was crunching the gears from time to time and had read that the clutch pedal should be higher than the brake pedal, the clutch I was told had been changed not long ago, the clutch feels light and the cable looked new, I adjusted it so that the pedal was slightly higher than the brake, so different (I'm almost a boy racer)

Any thoughts on the above? Have I missed anything?
Bonne Chance

Stephen

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Re: moving on

Post by Mandrake »

fridgedoc wrote:Hi all

Today I replaced the accumulator, straight forward enough, never done one before, kept bleeding the system, expected fluid to come out but none did, is this correct or should I keep bleeding until it does?
Not sure where you were expecting fluid to come out of ? 8)

When you bleed the system oil is being allowed to return to the resoviour tank where any trapped air carried along with it can bubble out of the system.

Opening the regulator bleed screw bleeds the oil stored in the accumulator sphere, while lowering the suspension bleeds the oil from the suspension spheres.

To fully bleed any possible air from the system requires a few repetitions, hence the "up and down thing" :lol:
Did the up and down thing (can never remember the correct word) clicking seemed to decrease for a while (40 sec's) after a test run it was back to 10 sec's, did the sit in boot test, and it rose a little, before it did not rise at all, the brakes feel better and there is a whooshing sound now when I turn the steering wheel, the ride does feel different since the acc was changed, I've sprayed all I can see under the car, I have a Haynes book on its way so I will be able to see which bits I've missed I HOPE!!!!
Ok, if its still only 10 seconds and the accumulator sphere is new then there must be a pressure leak in the system somewhere. :?

If your car had have been Hydractive 2 I would have immediately suspected the electrovalves leaking, but as it is not, I don't have any specific ideas as to what it might be. Pinning it down could be very difficult...sometimes the only way is to track back the overflow pipes into the resoviour and see which one has oil flowing.

Physically doing this, and figuring out which pipe comes from what are both difficult. :cry:

Also the accumulator sphere can in no way affect the ride quality, but whenever a sphere is changed there can be an improvement in ride quality - sometimes long term, some times only short term.

There is some debate as to the exact cause of this, but general agreement is that it is down to two things -

(a) bleeding any air which might have been trapped in the system, as counterintuitively air bubbles trapped between the suspension pistons and the spheres make the ride harsh, and yet at the same time bouncy and uncontrolled.

If air was the problem the ride improvement will be semi-permanent. (Unless the pump inlet pipe is leaking air in which case air will get back into the system fairly quickly)

(b) Self lubrication of the front suspension strut bushes by repetitively exercising them over their full height travel. I think this is the main reason for the improvement in most cases, and unfortunately, the improvement is only temporary.

Greasing them will sometimes make a longer lasting improvement, but if the improvement from greasing or self lubricating is large and yet short lived it can mean the strut bushes or shaft are worn out.

By the way, the Haynes book contains almost NOTHING about the hydraulic system, you're better off asking questions on this forum for hydraulic stuff...

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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1978 CX 2400
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fridgedoc
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AHHHH!!!!!!

Post by fridgedoc »

Hi Mandrake

Excuse my ignorance, first Citroen I've ever worked on!

Normally when you "BLEED" something, you open a port be it nut or bolt, first air leaks out then liquid leaks at which point you tighten the bleed bolt, like when you "BLEED" brakes, if this is not so on the hydraulics please enlighten me.
Bonne Chance

Stephen

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Re: AHHHH!!!!!!

Post by Mandrake »

fridgedoc wrote:Hi Mandrake

Excuse my ignorance, first Citroen I've ever worked on!

Normally when you "BLEED" something, you open a port be it nut or bolt, first air leaks out then liquid leaks at which point you tighten the bleed bolt, like when you "BLEED" brakes, if this is not so on the hydraulics please enlighten me.
Hi,

Yes bleeding the brakes is like that as they are dead end circuits, but the rest of the hydraulic systems are circular circuits that come from the pressure regulator, through the various systems and back to the resoviour tank.

So with the exception of bleeding the brakes, all bleeding is an internal process.

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
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fridgedoc
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AHHHHH!!!!!!!

Post by fridgedoc »

Thanks for your prompt reply, so what am I bleeding? totally confussed can't get my head around it, I open the bleed nut and I hear a hiss, I guess air is leaving the system? so what is taking its place, fluid? if this is the case fluid will eventually remove all of the air and fluid will leak from the bleed nut? from what you saying this is not the case or am I reading this wrong.........AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

HELP
Bonne Chance

Stephen

LHD Xantia 1994 (deceased)
LHD Xantia 1995 Berline
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Post by RichardW »

The hiss you can hear when you slacken the bleed screw is high pressure oil escaping through a small orifice. It's not a bleed screw in the brake caliper sense, more just a route from the high pressure to the low pressure sides of the suspension. Simply moving the car from low to high and back a few times will 'bleed' the air out of the suspension legs.
Richard W
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AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Post by fridgedoc »

Thanks for your reply Richard...............

Sorry Richard but where is the high pressure oil escaping to?

is it from the highside to the lowside? and NOT to the outside?

I need to sort the problems out asap, going to France in 7 days
and counting...........HELP!!!!!!!!
Bonne Chance

Stephen

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Post by RichardW »

"is it from the highside to the lowside? and NOT to the outside? "

Correct. The high pressure side is the pump outlet, the pressure regulator (what the accumulator is screwed onto) the height correctors, and the suspension struts and spheres. The low pressure side is the tank, pump suction, and the returns from all the various parts of the system (back to the tank). The pump runs all the time - if the system is demanding pressure (ie it's below the cut in pressure of 140 bar) then the pressure regulator opens and allows the pump to pump oil into the accumulator, until it reaches the required pressure (the cut out pressure - 170 bar) when the pressure regulator closes, and the regulator routes the oil straight back into the tank. It's the regulator closing that makes the audible click. When you open the bleed screw you are merely bypassing the valves in the regulator and allowing the high pressure oil stored in the accumulator to run back to the tank via a path in the regulator. Since the oil is at 140+ bar in the accumulator, and the tank at 0 bar, there's quite a hiss as it passes through the small hole 8)

As Simon says there must be a leak somewhere - but this is an internal leak - ie fluid leaking from the high side to the low side, causing a loss of pressure, which makes the accumulator cut in again. I wouldn't worry too much about it for the moment, providing everything works, and the light goes out reasonably quickly once the engine is started (I for instance have a leak in my electrovalve - part of the hydractive suspension - which causes a sub 10s tick time, been like that since I got the car, and likely to stay that way given the cost of a replacement!).

If the ride is firm then it could need new spheres on the suspension as well - although the Xantia (without hydractive) was never as soft as previous Citroens. Again, unless is rattling your teeth, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
Richard W
fridgedoc
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AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post by fridgedoc »

Thanks for your reply Richard, don't feel so worried now, as I am still waiting for my Haynes Manual to arrive (which I understand does NOT tell you much about the suspension.....Great!!) are all the pipes on the top of the fluid reservoir meant to have jubilee clips on them? as mine only have clips on 3? The fluid seems nice and clean and green noticed this when I changed the accumulator, would it be a good idea to check to see how clean the filter is in the reservoir? It sounds like a straight forward job.
Bonne Chance

Stephen

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Post by RichardW »

If they're not leaking I wouldn't worry too much about them - they're not usually seeing much flow or pressure. The only 2 that really need clips are the pump suction (if this is not tight it will suck air in, making the pump chatter to start with, leading to loss of prime in severe cases), and the return from the pressure regulator - this carries a lot of flow, so a leak will make a big mess!

Cleaning the filters will improve the time it takes the light to go out after a cold start, and may help with the steering, and the rate at which you get to high suspension, but is unlikely to improve the suspension (although the Cit suspension has a habit of significantly improving anytime you do anything to it - for about 3 days, then it goes back to the status quo :roll: ) Just one of those Citroen oddities....!
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Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:(I for instance have a leak in my electrovalve - part of the hydractive suspension - which causes a sub 10s tick time, been like that since I got the car, and likely to stay that way given the cost of a replacement!).
Hi Richard,

Slightly off topic, I have the same problem, but I've managed to locate a nearly new valve for $80NZ (about 30 pounds) but still waiting for it to arrive as yet. :evil:

Mine varies from about 8 seconds to 18 seconds on a day to day basis. I find that when the leakage is enough to drop the cycle time below about 10-12 seconds it starts to cause all kinds of problems with the ride - ride harshness and a strange underdamped unstable feeling to the suspension, particularly at high speed on uneven roads, and also a tendency for it to sometimes stick in the hard mode when it shouldn't...

Perhaps you could get a good one from a scrappy.... I'd definately recommend getting it fixed if at all possible, you might be surprised just how much the ride and handling may be suffering! I will definately report back to the forum when I get mine replaced, with the results, as it seems to be a relatively common problem...

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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