Help! Xantia front suspension pipe split

[Mandrake]

Hi All,

Just had a nasty problem on Dad's 1994 2.0i SX Xantia - the pipe to the front right suspension strut has split (three acrossways cracks, oil all over the place) near the flex point where the pipe travels from the bonnet rim to the strut top.

Can anyone tell me where the other end of the pipe terminates ? It looks like it goes under the hydraulic tank, and I know the anti-sink valve is also under the tank, so is this where it terminates ? Or is there another T junction there that it goes to ?

Naturally this happens on a Saturday.... and we also notice that that pipe is a gold colour, whereas the other pipe is black, so we're suspecting it could even be a bodged repair done by a previous owner where the pipe has been replaced with copper!!?? (It certainly looks like copper and seems softer than the pipe on the other side)

Edit: Here is a picture of the pipe. You can't see the cracks in the picture but I've put an arrow where they are...

http://homepages.igrin.co.nz/simon/imag ... -crack.jpg

Regards,
Simon

[andmcit]

Naturally this happens on a Saturday.... and we also notice that that pipe is a gold colour, whereas the other pipe is black, so we're suspecting it could even be a bodged repair done by a previous owner where the pipe has been replaced with copper!!?? (It certainly looks like copper and seems softer than the pipe on the other side) Simon

Seems reasonable to assume the kunifer [cupranikel] pipe you've got is an accepted replacement part pipe that may have been fitted by a specilaist/dealer.

It will be softer than the steel pipe which is painted black and is a standard fit to all hydraulic Citroens! Trust me when I say I've replaced EVERY pipe on the rearwards 2/3's of many Cx's to know they're steel AND ROT!!

The likelihood is the repair didn't route as per the original pipe and may have fatigued due to the routing being a fraction under length - the strut on lock to lock will 'wobble' on the cone of the rubber top which will see any weakness exploited.

I can see why/how it's happened - but not sure at the moment where it goes to - will check it out and give update!!

Andrew

Andrew

[andmcit]

I can see what the pipe fits onto but where it actually lives in the engine bay...

It's 10.45pm here now so can't look til tomorrow in daylight!!

Andrew

[Mandrake]

Hi,

Just a followup. We now have the pipe out, it turned out to be relatively easy to get out. As this car doesn't have ABS I was able to lift the tank and tilt it to the side without removing any of the pipes, and found that pipe goes into the end of the anti-sink valve as I suspected.

After removing the pipe completely our fears were confirmed - it IS a home made bodge job pipe made of copper. It doesn't respond to a magnet at all unlike the other steel pipes...

Also the crox (?) fittings at the end are incorrectly made - the bump that presses against the seal is much too flat, and is also the wrong distance from the end of the pipe, about 3mm to far from the end.

I'm amazed this pipe ever worked AT ALL. Grr.... second hand pipe on the way hopefully from a breaker we use, otherwise we will need to try and find a local hydraulic specialist that can supply a piece of pipe that we can custom make ourselves...

Could someone with a Petrol 2.0i 8 valve SX Auto have a peek under the bonnet and check the routing of that pipe ? I just looked at mums 1.9TD SX and it has the pipe routed completely differently - basically a mirror image of the other side where it goes around to the left (in the picture) and has a vertical S bend, then goes around the front of the strut and down into the engine bay, and goes behind the engine near the brake doseur valve instead of along the lip of the engine bay...

But its possible this could be due to the different engine layout requiring different pipe routing...

Edit: here is a picture under the bonnet of the 1.9TD SX pipe routing by comparison:

http://homepages.igrin.co.nz/simon/imag ... d-pipe.jpg

Regards,
Simon

[Clogzz]

Hello Simon,

Your car must be the same as mine under the bonnet.
The pipe is meant to go down against the frame, and it's a common fault for it to break where it's attached to the frame with a clamp.
It sounds like it's the same arrangement as on your diesel.
Mine broke at 56,000 km, and they silversoldered it back then for about $180.
I've got an old post on the subject somewhere, but can't find it now.

I just tried to photograph that, but it's so dark in there that the camera can't even focus.
I'll try by daylight tomorrow.

Regards,
Terry.

[AndersDK]

Simon -

If you end up in misery with the s/h pipe - there is always the option of silver soldering bits of good piping together.
That is if these pipings are 3.5mm (outer) use a 1" joiner made of 4.5mm piping. The surfaces that receive the solder must be rubbed clean, then dipped in mason acid (30% solution for homework) you may have in workshop. Avoid the acid vapours when you are soldering

Even CuNi/steel/stainless (because of the Ni content) piping can be joined safely this way. Then you can always use a pipe bit with the correctly Citroen flared end. Just remember the pipe union goes on the pipe - *before* - you start soldering
(how do I know that )

Btw : your image URL does not respond ?

[Mandrake]

Simon -

If you end up in misery with the s/h pipe - there is always the option of silver soldering bits of good piping together.
That is if these pipings are 3.5mm (outer) use a 1" joiner made of 4.5mm piping. The surfaces that receive the solder must be rubbed clean, then dipped in mason acid (30% solution for homework) you may have in workshop. Avoid the acid vapours when you are soldering

Even CuNi/steel/stainless (because of the Ni content) piping can be joined safely this way. Then you can always use a pipe bit with the correctly Citroen flared end. Just remember the pipe union goes on the pipe - *before* - you start soldering
(how do I know that )

Hi Anders,

Hopefully it wont come to that

Btw : your image URL does not respond ?

The hosting site was down for some major maintainance just as you were looking.... try now.

Regards,
Simon

[Clogzz]

Hi Simon,

Difficulties making good photos in the dark engine bay with an antique Mavica camera with floppy discs, retrieved from the rubbish bin at work years ago.
The pipe is normally attached to the frame with a clamp just under where I glued the sponge to the frame with silicone.
It passes under the doser, then continues along other pipes at the top of the bulkhead to the anti-sink valve.
The original mounting with clamp causes the pipe to fatigue.
The ‘sponge’ modification was done about 7 years ago, and it’s still good.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/ ... Sponge.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/ ... -bends.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/ ... rdoser.jpg

And how far can you open the bonnet like that ?
Looks like you’ve got it resting against the windscreen ?

Regards,
Terry.

[Mandrake]

Hi Simon,

Difficulties making good photos in the dark engine bay with an antique Mavica camera with floppy discs, retrieved from the rubbish bin at work years ago.
The pipe is normally attached to the frame with a clamp just under where I glued the sponge to the frame with silicone.
It passes under the doser, then continues along other pipes at the top of the bulkhead to the anti-sink valve.
The original mounting with clamp causes the pipe to fatigue.
The ‘sponge’ modification was done about 7 years ago, and it’s still good.

Hi Terry,

Thanks for that. Did you see the second picture I posted of the 1993 1.9TD ? It has the pipe going around the opposite way to yours, which means that it has more length to bend over, so even though it's anchored to the body the same way yours originally was it may not be subject to the same fatigue problem..

Will be interesting to see what path the second hand replacement pipe is designed to follow. If its the same as yours we may put a similar mod there as you have - in fact we'll have to as that bracket is missing anyway....

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/ ... Sponge.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/ ... -bends.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/ ... rdoser.jpg

And how far can you open the bonnet like that ?
Looks like you’ve got it resting against the windscreen ?

No, its just fully open, the bonnets are designed to open up beyond vertical and support themselves, although you have to tie it back to prevent a gust of wind blowing it shut on you Certainly makes access to difficult places a lot easier.

Regards,
Simon

[Clogzz]

Hi Simon,

Hadn't seen your second picture until tonight because it wasn't linking last night, and my last post above was written earlier and then copied and pasted in before I went to the link again.

The diesel arrangement looks very good, with plenty of lenght to flex.
I wonder if it's not a modification and repair done by a very expert mechanic who transferred the pipe to the outside, when it would have been on the inside originally.
There's rust in the inside mounting, doesn't it mean that the bolt was there originally ?
You can see what I would call a white 'splice' in the pipe, just under the sphere, and wonder if it's original.
Could that be the silversoldering of a 1" joiner piece that Anders refers to ?

As for the missing bracket, for in case you'll need one, I've still got mine in a jar of bits, and won't re-use it.
If you have to improvise one, this is how it looks:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/ ... C-007F.jpg

Regards,
Terry.

[AndersDK]

Except for the exact bends & run - this pipe installation is the same for the BX.

[Mandrake]

Hi Simon,

Hadn't seen your second picture until tonight because it wasn't linking last night, and my last post above was written earlier and then copied and pasted in before I went to the link again.

The diesel arrangement looks very good, with plenty of lenght to flex.
I wonder if it's not a modification and repair done by a very expert mechanic who transferred the pipe to the outside, when it would have been on the inside originally.

No I dont think so, as the other side of the car also runs the pipe exactly the same but opposite - eg around the outside. I think its just a model/year specific variation.

There's rust in the inside mounting, doesn't it mean that the bolt was there originally ?

Or perhaps that the hole has rusted because it was empty ?

You can see what I would call a white 'splice' in the pipe, just under the sphere, and wonder if it's original.

Yes that is original, its not a splice of any kind it is just a long plastic (teflon?) tube/clip about 10cm long which is presumably there to prevent the pipe rubbing against the body in that area. Both sides of the car have it, and also the good (left) side of Dad's car has the same plastic clip.

Could that be the silversoldering of a 1" joiner piece that Anders refers to ?

Nope

As for the missing bracket, for in case you'll need one, I've still got mine in a jar of bits, and won't re-use it.
If you have to improvise one, this is how it looks:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b206/ ... C-007F.jpg

Thats kind of you, but being in NZ its a long way to send it I'm sure we can find one locally.

Regards,
Simon

[Mandrake]

Except for the exact bends & run - this pipe installation is the same for the BX.

Hi Anders, which one are you refering to ? The 1.9TD one where it runs around the outside and back towards the middle again ?

Regards,
Simon

[Clogzz]

perhaps that the hole has rusted because it was empty ?

Sorry Simon,

Those holes show rusty on all photographs.
On my car too, both sides have rusty holes.
I should have properly looked over the lot before posting, instead of after, as I did.

Regards,
Terry.

[RichardW]

Failure of that pipe is common where it is clamped to the inner wing. The one on Simon's Dad's car has clearly already been replaced, but it has not been routed properly - which is probably why it has failed again. According to pr.net there is only 1 pipe for all non-hydractive / Activa cars with anti-sink (except those with ML5 transmission) - so I guess it should follow the same route as the TD. David Woolllard recommends replacing that pipe when changing the clutch, as it is much easier to route with the box, and all the gubbins out of the way. It should run down inner wing, and then in the channel with all the other pipes across the back of the engine. There is no problem with running the pipes in Kunifer rather than steel - most repipes are done this way, and most aftermarket brake pipes are made of this - but it should follow the original route, and be properly supported (unlike this one was!). On the other hand it should be readily available from the dealer, as it needs frequent changing - although whether this is true in NZ is not so clear....