Scum in header tank - would u buy a car with mucky coolant?

[avinit]

Hi. This forum is great.

I have looked at two second hand TD xantias lately and both have had horrible, scummy, pink, foamy sludge in the header tanks. On both occasions I walked away, my reasoning being that this was evidence of cooling problems past or present and possible HG damage.

Is this a common problem? Is it significant? What does the forum think? What would you have done?

Thats my question posted, but read on for the story of my Xantia hunt so far if you wish...

I was looking at cars at the cheap end of the price range 800 to 1000 quid, but I still reckon for that money I should be able to find a car that is not a project! Am i being reasonable?

The first one I saw was for sale by my local independent cit specialist. The guy who runs the place seems to be ok and has been fair to me with work they have done, but when i went round to look at his Xant for sale i only got the tour from a junior minion.

The car had rotten, cracked auxiliary belts and this scum in the header tank and the minion stands there telling me ... ooh yes, one lady owner for the last 10 years (on a 97 car?), we have done all the work on it, we know this car and its a goodun.... And I am thinking, "well looking at those belts I hope you are proud of yourselves" ...

I say "The car has 110k on the clock. When was the cam belt done please?" He says he doesn't know "but we would have done it and we use special long life ones anyway that are good for 100k"..... Anyone else heard of these? Where can we all get them?

And when I ask him about the scum in the water he says "nonono, the car is good etc etc," I say, "so why the scum, has their not been a cooling problem?" He says "The cooling system is fine, we put a new rad on a few weeks ago" Aha! But why is there still scum? "Because she was on the way to see her sick mother when we changed the rad and there wasnt time to flush the system" ...

Is this part at all plausible? How long does it take to run a hose through the cooling system? Even without flushing, would fresh coolant really have looked so scummy?

The second Xantia I looked at was only yesterday. It was on an R plate with decent miles but appeared to have a flat anti-sink sphere and a shortage of LHM in the reservoir for some reason (Stop light flickered when driving, confirmed by a look under the bonnet). Combined with the scum in the water I walked away even tho it was only 800 squid. (Dented door didnt help the value). Again, would you have bought it (from an Alfa Romeo dealer PX to clear)?

I have had 3 Turbo BXs all of which were fine, but showed their age, now I am after a Xantia TD estate ( I have got a 2002 mondeo HDDI for now, it is crap.)

[mezuk04]

Even £800 should be able to get you a pretty good deal with no massive projects but a little work to ensure its good for ya! and what i always like - "your own piece of mind"

[Peter.N.]

Scum in the water is not necessaraly indicative of anything except that the coolant hasn't been changed recently. The head gasket life is usually around 150k, although that cant be guaranteed. If the water level is fairly normal and there no signs of it being blown out of the overflow the gasket is probably OK. Also check for the presence of antifreeze, if it has been continually topped up this will be weak to non existant, you can check by tasting the water, it should be quite sweet. Check for pressure build up after driving, there will always be some pressure in the cooling system but if the water level is normal is shouldn't blow any out when you undo the filler, if it ejects large quantities of water, leave it alone. Be very careful when doing this so as not to get a faceful of boiling water. Placae a rag over the filler cap.

Unless you pay a lot of money, you will always find something that wants doing, you can usually reckon on a new set of spheres, well certainly an accumulator sphere anyway, but if it drives allright , everything works and the price is right, go for it.

[JohnD]

Brown scummy fluid in the header tank shouts "neglect". If coolant changes have been neglected, what else has not been done. Chances are the LHM will also be a similar colour. If it was, I'd be walking away.

[fastandfurryous]

"but we would have done it and we use special long life ones anyway that are good for 100k"

What utter rubbish. I can't see any garage changing a timing belt unless they have to. and "special" long life belts? he's talking out of his .... well, you know!

"The cooling system is fine, we put a new rad on a few weeks ago" Aha! But why is there still scum? "Because she was on the way to see her sick mother when we changed the rad and there wasnt time to flush the system"

Oh for goodness sake! what a sales line. The time taken to flush a cooling system compared to the time needed to change a rad is nothing. Anyone who changes a rad without even rinsing the cooling system isn't to be trusted.
Does the rad look new? Does the coolant look new? I bet neither do.

There are far better cars to be had for less money. Ebay is a good bet. You can be sure that any car you get from Ebay will have it's problems, but you'll be spending £300 rather than £900.

[mezuk04]

Also Auto Trader too, thats where I found mine and am very happy with it!

But this garage you refer to.....i would take it as a big NO NO

[adamskibx]

Yeah I wouldnt trust that one at all. Like fastandfurrious said if you change a radiator you will flush the system and bleed it extensively. I recently changed the water on my BX as it was mucky and flushed the system with heater in hot mode for ages. Refilled with 50% antifreez, 50% water and took time to be 100% sure there could be no air in there by bleeding extensively. I have since covered several hundred miles and the fluid is like new. If what they say about having no time to flush the system is true, youve got to ask questions about their dedication to the health of the car and general common sense. Either way it spell trouble. The other Xantia you mention sounds less dodgy and could just be that it hasnt had the apropriate cooling system attention. Flat spheres arent the end of the world either and a low LHM level is likely to be a leak or even a past leak that was fixed but without a good LHM top un on top height setting. £800 sounds good for such a new one but obviously its still a lot of money to spend if your unsure about it.

[avinit]

Thanks for thoughts all.

Opinions seem to be divided about how significant the water scum might be. The generally shared view that it means neglect is certainly important in itself.

I think I am going to take it that i would only buy a car with scummy water if the price allows me to fix the head gasked and still break even. So that means only on a good tidy car that will be worthwhile investing in. Still, I am not sure what to allow for an HG job. I know a mechanic with 40 yrs exp who only charges 15 quid an hour if you are not in a hurry, so worst case i guess i am looking at about 8hrs labour plus a new/recon head?

How much is a new or recon head? Any clue? All the tales of cracking, and the potential for things to go wrong with skimming and machining are not encouraging on keeping the engineering costs down.

Interesting one about tasting the water that ... I might even try it if I am feeling brave.

I agree the second car was closer to a deal being newer and only 800 quid and not being sold by a total clown (although he too had his pitch)... but then i reckoned by the time i had spent the minimum necessary to get it running properly the total cost might get me a tidier if older car that needed less initial work..

What do you think about motor auctions (RL, not ebay)? How do you get a proper chance to pick a good car if you don't get a test drive? Are they really any cheaper at auction?

I went to a couple some years ago and it seemed like the traders there had inside knowledge on every car that came up. It was pretty hard to work out what was going on and what was dictating the bid price although i have learnt a lot more about cars since then.

[avinit]

I just remembered, the BX at the local garage also clicked every three seconds or so until the suspension had climbed all the way.

The dodgy wee man said this was not a problem. Any ideas?

[jeremy]

BX shouldn't tick more than about every 30 seconds, and ideally considerably longer than that when static with the engine running in the normal height position.

Rapid ticking can be an indication of a severe internal leak, defective accumulator sphere or defective non-return valve in the regulator. The remedies are respectively repair, replace sphere, or reseat the valve.

If the car is raised to full height the ticking will slow if it is the accumulator sphere as the suspension spheres then act as accumulators. A good accumulator will lift the car if you sit in the boot. (run engine and get to normal height and let the car idle for a minute or so, switch off engine and sit in the boot. Car should drop by 6 inches or so then after 30 seconds or so rise to its original position if everything is working.)

NOTE - the tests above all depend on the car reaching a steady state, not when the suspension is rising.

jeremy

[Mandrake]

Also check for the presence of antifreeze, if it has been continually topped up this will be weak to non existant, you can check by tasting the water, it should be quite sweet.

I would suggest NOT tasting radiator water in any circumstances. If there is enough anti-freeze in there, the colour should be obvious. (Usually green) Not only is anti-freeze poisionous in relatively small amounts, but all the other crud out of the engine that can get into the water system probably is too, especially if the head gasket is leaking a bit.

Regards,
Simon

[bxbodger]

What do you think about motor auctions (RL, not ebay)? How do you get a proper chance to pick a good car if you don't get a test drive? Are they really any cheaper at auction?

You can't test drive them, but you can at least watch them start up, and the chance you take is reflected in the price you pay.

The cars you were looking at had most likely come through auction, anyway. If they are being put out by a trader at £800-£1000 then he's certainly not paid any more than £300 for them himself, and going by what you say of their condition, they want to maximise their profit by not doing anything to them before sale...........so why not cut out the middle man and take a trip down the local cheapie auctions!!!

You should be able to pick up a good Xantia for next to nothing at auction. They are not as popular in the trade as something like an Astra or Escort/Focus and thats reflected in the price. I usually get my daily drivers at auction, and the key is to not be too choosy and to go for something unfashionable which the trade don't want..........like my BX in fact, which was the best on the night for the money I had!! The Escorts etc were going like hot cakes as they are dead easy to sell on, but nobody was interested in the BX.

Go a couple of times with no money, so you're not tempted, and watch what makes the regulars buy and what they don't buy:what they don't want is usually where you will get your bargain - its an entertaining evening out even if you aren't looking to buy a car!!

[rbruce1314]

For several years I bought all my cars from auction. Never had a baddun. BUT I always covered myself as follows. Tho living in Gloucestershire I went to the big Birmingham auction out at Castle Bromwich. Bought at bottom book. Drove it the 80 miles home. Here's the clever bit:

If it HAD been a baddun, I would smply have put it into the local (Dursley) auction 9 miles away. Prices are higher there anyway, but the point was nobody would have seen it before and I would have got at least the same price.