Xantia failed to start.

caeclyd2 · Unread post by **caeclyd2** » 20 Oct 2005, 20:59

Typical. I was runing late for work this afternoon and I jumped into the car and went through the usual startup proceedure AND for the first time ever she let me down

The engine was turning, some smoke was coming out of the exhaust but she would not bite. I thought that there may be some air in the system so I quickly primed the system using the bulb (I was desperate)........nothing. My initial prognosis is Glowplugs. I have already ordered a set and they should be with me in the afternoon. Is there anything else that I should look out for ?

The car has been running like a watch until today.
EDIT

98 Xantia estate 1.9 turbo D not hdi

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 20 Oct 2005, 21:07

I'm almost certain it isn't the glowplugs if the car has been starting well. My reasoning is that they are wired in parallel so that if one fails then the other 3 will work. My experience has been that my BX TD (megamileage) will start quite easily in moderate weather with 2 working - so unless starting has been getting worse and the last one gave up today then they won't have all failed together.

It might be the glowplug timer/relay - in which case if you disconnect the wire leading to the first plug (all are linked but one has a wire going to the timer/relay) you can now jump the plugs to the battery positive terminal and the car will start normally. Obviously if you have a meter or test lamp you can chase round the circuit and see what is happening.

Smoke in the exhaust suggests that fuel is present, the pump primed and the cut-off solenoid is working.

A few more details about your car would help - age, engine size, turbo or not etc. - also if it has an immobiliser and if you know, what make and type of pump (ie Bosch electronic ...)

caeclyd2 · Unread post by **caeclyd2** » 20 Oct 2005, 21:16

Jeremy,

Thanks for the pointers. I am at work at the moment and I will not be home until 22:30.
I will have a look in the morning.

From my edit about the car i see that you must have been typing just after I had posted !

thanks.

caeclyd2 · Unread post by **caeclyd2** » 21 Oct 2005, 11:19

"It might be the glowplug timer/relay - in which case if you disconnect the wire leading to the first plug (all are linked but one has a wire going to the timer/relay) you can now jump the plugs to the battery positive terminal and the car will start normally. Obviously if you have a meter or test lamp you can chase round the circuit and see what is happening. "

I removed the lead from the relay and connected it to the battery as you suggested and still no joy. She still turns but will not fire.

The glowplugs have just arrived from GSF.

Thinking back over the past few weeks I had noticed on the start up that there was a puff of smoke from cold and occasionally I had to crank the starter a few times before the engine fired.

My experience with glowplugs in the past (306 td)is that you can detect an obvious misfire from cold . I have not experienced a misfire with this car.

The battery is on charge from now until the morning (saturday).I have to go to work,evening shift.

I have until sunday evening to sort this thing out.

fastandfurryous · Unread post by **fastandfurryous** » 21 Oct 2005, 12:36

If it still refuses to start, there is a way of confirming if it is simply the glowplugs, or something more serious.

To start a cold diesel engine without glowplugs, you can use a technique that was common 40 years ago, and is still relevant. I used it last year on a 1.9D engine with a broken glowplug timer, that I had to get home to fix:

You need a helper. Remove the intercooler to gain access to the inlet manifold. Have the helper crank the engine while you poke a roaring blowlamp flame into the intake manifold. This works best with a parafin blowlamp, but a gas one will work too. The engine will be reluctant, but should start after 4-8 pistons over TDC. When the engine starts, you will probably find it has sucked the flame off the blowlamp, so turn it off pretty quickly!

(obviously this is easier on a D engine rather than a TD as you can simply pull the inlet pipe off the manifold.)

If this method makes the engine start and run just fine, then it's guaranteed to be a glowplug fault.

Stewart(oily) · Unread post by **Stewart(oily)** » 21 Oct 2005, 12:42

Another test for the glowplug relay is to (very carefully) connect a jump lead to battery +ve and to the end of an accessible glowplug, wait ten seconds then have a go at starting, in the older BX/405 Blue relays there are some contacts which can benefit from a clean up, I dont know whether theres a similar arrangement in the later ones.
Stewart

mpr1956 · Unread post by **mpr1956** » 21 Oct 2005, 21:23

When my 19td suddenly became reluctant to start, I found that there was a leak around the fuel filter, and the pump was drawing in air... ( it only takes a tiny amount of air getting in to ruin the starting ) I found another filter body at a scrappies and problem solved for a tenner !
A quick test is to bypass the filter body and connect the fuel line direct to the pump and see if there is any improvement ( I should add that I'm not a mechanic, but this test isolated the rogue component for me )

caeclyd2 · Unread post by **caeclyd2** » 21 Oct 2005, 23:32

fastandfurryous wrote:If it still refuses to start, there is a way of confirming if it is simply the glowplugs, or something more serious.

To start a cold diesel engine without glowplugs, you can use a technique that was common 40 years ago, and is still relevant. I used it last year on a 1.9D engine with a broken glowplug timer, that I had to get home to fix:

You need a helper. Remove the intercooler to gain access to the inlet manifold. Have the helper crank the engine while you poke a roaring blowlamp flame into the intake manifold. This works best with a parafin blowlamp, but a gas one will work too. The engine will be reluctant, but should start after 4-8 pistons over TDC. When the engine starts, you will probably find it has sucked the flame off the blowlamp, so turn it off pretty quickly!

(obviously this is easier on a D engine rather than a TD as you can simply pull the inlet pipe off the manifold.)

If this method makes the engine start and run just fine, then it's guaranteed to be a glowplug fault.

Now I know where you got your name from ....fastandfurryous

There are some good pointers here thanks for the advive. I will have a bash at them in the morning.....cross fingers

Kowalski · Unread post by **Kowalski** » 21 Oct 2005, 23:45

fastandfurryous wrote:If it still refuses to start, there is a way of confirming if it is simply the glowplugs, or something more serious.

To start a cold diesel engine without glowplugs, you can use a technique that was common 40 years ago, and is still relevant. I used it last year on a 1.9D engine with a broken glowplug timer, that I had to get home to fix:

You need a helper. Remove the intercooler to gain access to the inlet manifold. Have the helper crank the engine while you poke a roaring blowlamp flame into the intake manifold. This works best with a parafin blowlamp, but a gas one will work too. The engine will be reluctant, but should start after 4-8 pistons over TDC. When the engine starts, you will probably find it has sucked the flame off the blowlamp, so turn it off pretty quickly!

On the Scrap Heap Challenge episode with the citroen engine that went underwater, they had a similar problem starting a diesel engine (it was the Kia one not the Citroen). They cranked it with a couple of different batteries (flattening both), used ez-start (ether) and still it wouldn't start, so then they tried a more modern version of the blow lamp trick, with a hot air gun (the type you would use for stripping paint). It started pretty quickly once that was blowing into it's manifold. I don't suppose health and safety would let them use a blow lamp! A hairdryer would probably do the job too, and there'd be less risk of singing stuff or setting the car alite.

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 22 Oct 2005, 00:30

These sort of starting systems were common on diesels before glowplugs were in common use. I've seen a 1957 ferguson tractor (with the Standard Diesel) fitted with a system made by Kigass - you pumped parrafin into the manifold with a small pump - then heated - by turning the key. You could hear the flames licking around the manifold and generally it would start. Having said that this tractor has been started on easy start for the last 25 years or so.

NiSk · Unread post by **NiSk** » 22 Oct 2005, 11:35

This cold starting trick is actually still used on a large number of diesel commercials - they have a preheater comprising a spiral electrical element inside the air intake that heats up the air so that they start in cold weather.

//NiSk

fastandfurryous · Unread post by **fastandfurryous** » 22 Oct 2005, 13:09

Kowalski wrote:and there'd be less risk of singing stuff or setting the car alite.

There's no risk of that anyway!

The Perkins engine in my landrover uses a similar system to this, in that it has a lucas "thermostart" in the intake manifold. It's a small electrical heater coil, with a supply of diesel fuel.

When 12v is applied, the coil gets red hot, and opens the valve to allow diesel to dribble in, which duly catches fire. At that point you crank the engine, so it has no option but to start, as there is already combustion going on in the cylinders.

You have to be a *little* bit careful with these though, as if they run for too long, you can set fire to the intake system!

Anyway... Mr. caeclyd2... have you found the problem?

caeclyd2 · Unread post by **caeclyd2** » 22 Oct 2005, 19:05

fastandfurryous wrote:
Kowalski wrote:and there'd be less risk of singing stuff or setting the car alite.
There's no risk of that anyway!

The Perkins engine in my landrover uses a similar system to this, in that it has a lucas "thermostart" in the intake manifold. It's a small electrical heater coil, with a supply of diesel fuel.

When 12v is applied, the coil gets red hot, and opens the valve to allow diesel to dribble in, which duly catches fire. At that point you crank the engine, so it has no option but to start, as there is already combustion going on in the cylinders.

You have to be a *little* bit careful with these though, as if they run for too long, you can set fire to the intake system!

Anyway... Mr. caeclyd2... have you found the problem?

100% ..........glowplugs.
Some good advice and checks were provided here. Many thanks