Front sphere hell !!!!

Jshodgson · Post by **Jshodgson** » 24 Sep 2005, 19:16

I have tried to change my 2 front spheres today without a great deal of success. It has taken me 4 hours, the help of my neighbour and I've managed to break 3 tools just to replace one. It was stuck solid.
In the end we drilled a 12mm hole and fed a long 12mm bar through it with both of us pulling it finally cracked and came off.
I have saved the other for another day. [:(!]
When I pressurised the system at the end I noticed that the back of the car does not rise as much as the front and when at full height it is quite bouncy. When I push down on the 2 corners there isn't much resistance from the drivers side. Any ideas? I have been suffering from "bouncy castle" ride quality hence the attempt at changing the spheres......

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 24 Sep 2005, 19:24

Errrrmmm...
Front spheres are NOT considered a problem ?
It's the rear ones that makes you swear ...
- just to prepare you for the job [}:)]
Drilling holes in the sphere to fit a "handle" is the most extreme solution I've heard yet.
Most sure and easy solution is the hammer & chisel method right on the raised edge on the sphere. One good blow and the sphere will bodge.
Refitting the new sphere is done using HAND torque only - like you do an oil filter. Exactly to avoid your initial problem removing the sphere.
BTW type of tools to use :
Ready made : http://www.tool-up.co.uk/shop/diy/MISBOA.html
DIY : http://citroenz.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1700
Steel chain tools are not really suitable as they have low friction against a steel surface. Meaning they are torqued beyond their capability (like standard oil filter tools).

Jshodgson · Post by **Jshodgson** » 24 Sep 2005, 19:32

Thanks Anders
I tried the chisel technique....I made a tool from threaded bar and a steel length like the one's I've seen posted.....I thought I might try a large strap wrench for the other one?????

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 24 Sep 2005, 20:51

i own two tools one is purpose made for the job which is a 1/4" thick spring steel loop with a pinch bolt and a 3/4"square bar for the handle,you fit the loop around the sphere do up the pinch bolt and clonk the handle with a club hammer,the other tool i have is a stanly 30cm plumbers pipe rench which i have had for quite a few years without breaking it,and i usuly put a 2' tube on to it to give more leverage,this pipe rench cost me about £30 squide
regards malcolm

kafkaian · Post by **kafkaian** » 24 Sep 2005, 23:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Drilling holes in the sphere to fit a "handle" is the most extreme solution I've heard yet.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
To be fair Anders, that's what I did on my rears in 2003. I drilled to the rear of the spheres (missing the bags) so as not to infect the system with swarf. I couldn't do it any other way in the end.
However, the fronts I did in seconds with a good quality chain wrench

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 25 Sep 2005, 00:45

If you must drill a sphere, at the very least wear goggles. There may well be a lot of stored pressure even in a 'flat' sphere.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 25 Sep 2005, 01:22

even when they are flat the blader can be ruptured and full of presurised LHM,also the blader dose go right to the valve end of the sphere
regards malcolm

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 25 Sep 2005, 03:48

Holy cow! [:0]
DO NOT, EVER drill holes into the side of a sphere! This is stupidity of the highest order, and extremely dangerous.
1) Check, check, check, and triple check that you have properly depressurized the system. Even a few bars of pressure left in the system can make a sphere nearly impossible to undo. Set the height lever to right down and let the engine idle with the bleed screw closed for as much as 5 minutes to guarentee that all pressure is released, (especially on HA2 models) then open the bleed screw and switch off the engine.
2) Make or get a proper tool for the job. A lot of the tools people try to use simply aren't up to the job. You need something that can clamp around the sphere and allow you to apply torque WITHOUT the tool stretching. Any tool that stretches (eg oil filter strap wrench) will not budge a stubbon sphere. It can also help to have an assistant with a 2lb block hammer hitting the side of the sphere as well for extra shocking of the rusted faces of the joint.
3) Don't overtighten the new spheres and you won't have this problem next time - tight with two hands is plenty. If you must, give it the tiniest little extra nip with the tool after this so that it just turns.
Safety first people, when high pressure gas and oil are involved...
Regards,
Simon

Jshodgson · Post by **Jshodgson** » 25 Sep 2005, 04:37

Now that I have been so stupid as to drill my sphere I am concernd about the contamination I may have caused with the swarf, as mentioned by kafkaian.
What do I need to check to see if I have caused any problems?

kafkaian · Post by **kafkaian** » 25 Sep 2005, 04:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mandrake

Holy cow! [:0]
DO NOT, EVER drill holes into the side of a sphere! This is stupidity of the highest order, and extremely dangerous.
1) Check, check, check, and triple check that you have properly depressurized the system. Even a few bars of pressure left in the system can make a sphere nearly impossible to undo. Set the height lever to right down and let the engine idle with the bleed screw closed for as much as 5 minutes to guarentee that all pressure is released, (especially on HA2 models) then open the bleed screw and switch off the engine.
2) Make or get a proper tool for the job. A lot of the tools people try to use simply aren't up to the job. You need something that can clamp around the sphere and allow you to apply torque WITHOUT the tool stretching. Any tool that stretches (eg oil filter strap wrench) will not budge a stubbon sphere. It can also help to have an assistant with a 2lb block hammer hitting the side of the sphere as well for extra shocking of the rusted faces of the joint.
3) Don't overtighten the new spheres and you won't have this problem next time - tight with two hands is plenty. If you must, give it the tiniest little extra nip with the tool after this so that it just turns.
Safety first people, when high pressure gas and oil are involved...
Regards,
Simon
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's not stupid if you know what you are doing and my system was completely depressurised and on ramps. In the end, given the tools I had and the problems I faced, I had no choice. I don't think telling people they're stupid is particularly helpful Mandrake. I now have a perfect system, following a method which was perfectly safe given the precautions I made. Next time, please be kind enough to warn people with respect not insults. I know you feel strongly about this and understand your general concern, but I am entirely satisfied given my degree and further research in Electronic & Software Engineering that I am anything but stupid thank you very much!!!
1) Check
2) Tried and failed
3) My spheres were from new, so if they were overtightened, then Citroën did this during assembly.
Ian

kafkaian · Post by **kafkaian** » 25 Sep 2005, 04:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jshodgson

Now that I have been so stupid as to drill my sphere I am concernd about the contamination I may have caused with the swarf, as mentioned by kafkaian.
What do I need to check to see if I have caused any problems?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If you are really concerned that this may have happened then perhaps flushing of the system might be in order. There's plenty on here about that.

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 25 Sep 2005, 04:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kafkaian
It's not stupid if you know what you are doing and my system was completely depressurised and on ramps.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What about the gas pressure in the spheres ? You can't be sure that the spheres are already punctured. I stand by my statement that it is very dangerous to attempt such drilling. Until this thread I had NEVER heard of anyone ever attempting to do this, which is why I expressed such shock.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
In the end, given the tools I had and the problems I faced, I had no choice. I don't think telling people they're stupid is particularly helpful Mandrake. I now have a perfect system, following a method which was perfectly safe given the precautions I made. Next time, please be kind enough to warn people with respect not insults. I know you feel strongly about this and understand your general concern.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm sorry that you took offence, but in a thread where someone says "I did this and it worked" and the thing that they did is potentially VERY dangerous for someone else who might be tempted to try it, its extremely important that other people are warned of the danger in no uncertain terms.
People have been KILLED by working on Citroen hydraulic systems without using due care.
It's kind of like someone saying "see, I stuck my finger in an electrical socket and it didnt kill me, so it must be ok". Just because someone got away with it doesn't make it a good or safe thing to do. [:D] Nor is this. Please people, don't drill holes in the sides of your spheres...there is always another way.
Take it easy...
Regards,
Simon

kafkaian · Post by **kafkaian** » 25 Sep 2005, 05:00

Simon (Mandrake) I was referring to the statement in general terms and correct I could have been more specific for safety reasons, but an addendum would have sufficed from you as the others have kindly (and rightly)offered. I too stand by my assertion so let's agree to differ. I had absolutely no problem with this method and if the precautions taken are wise ones, then as a last resort (as was mine) this is a suitable, if not drastic, solution.
At the end of the day you were insulting and I am perfectly easy. Perhaps you need to take it easy.....
For anyone else out there, if you must and do decide to drill into your spheres, please take note of the wise precautions given, the pressure in the system and the fact that you are working on a Citroën suspension which can kill if not properly supported. Also bear in mind that swarf can get into the system and damage delicate components creating an even more expensive job. Some people advocate not drilling into the spheres but whether you do or not is entirely up to you and down to individuals making an informed decision. 
Ian

ItDontGo · Post by **ItDontGo** » 25 Sep 2005, 17:27

DONT DRILL SPHERES YOU ARE ALMOST CERTAIN TO DIE AND MAYBE KILL EVERYONE AROUND YOU WITHIN A MILE
The initial poster is obviously posting from beyond the grave isn't he. As was the next guy who suggested it. Or maybe drilling a sphere isn't as deadly as some people are making out. Do we have some health and safety inspectors posting here or what?
If you are going to use a chisel, by the way, you should do it as close to the thread as you can. This means the amplitude of the impulse will be at its maximum possible at the thread.

Jshodgson · Post by **Jshodgson** » 25 Sep 2005, 17:37

I am still alive ... just and for the record following my drilling experience I DO NOT suggest anyone tries it. If you are as stuck as I was then phone a mechanic with some decent tools.
The second sphere came off this morning with the aid of a cold chisel and large lump hammer after snapping an industrial leather strap wrench. I don't know who/what/why fitted them in such a tight way.
I am now going to make a really decent tool before attempting the accumulator and rears...................