Red "LHM"... Grrrr

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Red "LHM"... Grrrr

Post by Mandrake »

Hi All,
Have been planning to change the LHM on my Xantia since I got it about 6 weeks ago but havn't had the time until now. Back when I bled the brakes I noticed that the colour of the oil was dark and assumed it might be fairly dirty, and added replacing the LHM and cleaning the filters to my todo list, but today I made a nasty discovery.
I siphoned a sample of oil out of the resoviour into a glass jar and held it up to the light and rather than being a dirty green or brown colour that some people here report, it is dark RED! Almost like a dark red wine.
So, what I'm wondering is, is this hydraflush that has gone dark/dirty from being left in for far too long, or is it completely the wrong oil ? The smell is quite different and Dad says it looks and smells a lot like automatic transmition fluid. [:(!]
I've already ordered some LHM+ to flush and replace the oil, I'm not taking any chances on what it might be, hopefully it hasn't done any damage to the seals in the system.
The hydraulic system is basically working ok, however I'm wondering if this could be a cause of the lack of damping I notice in the rear suspension in soft mode ? If the viscocity of the oil is lower than LHM it would reduce the damping for a given size damping hole...
Another thing I'm wondering is if the incorrect oil may affect the self lubrication of the front suspension struts ? Especially if it is thinner, as I've suspected that the front struts aren't lubricated well enough despite the greasing I gave them a while ago.
If this is possible, the question is how would I get rid of the red oil from inside the strut itself, as it is a dead end apart from the leakage port ? Do I just have to wait a few weeks for what is sitting in the strut to leak through the overflow return pipe ? [:(]
Regards,
Simon
bxbodger
Posts: 1455
Joined: 23 May 2003, 03:34
Location: Lovejoy country (Essex!!)
My Cars:
x 1

Post by bxbodger »

It could well be ATF- the handbook for the BX says it can be used as a get you home emergency if you lose all your LHM and can't get any more. Its supposed to be flushed out as soon as possible....
It could also be LHM's predescessor, which was red, as used on early DS's- hopefully not as the red and green types are non-compatible, or more it could be mil-spec aircraft hydraulic fluid which is claimed to be a more or less identical spec to LHM. Apparently its used a lot in parts of the world where LHM is hard to get.
My bets on ATF....someone put it in knowing the car was going soon.....[:(!]
User avatar
AndersDK
Posts: 6060
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 04:56
Location: Denmark
My Cars:
x 1

Post by AndersDK »

Just empty & clean the reservoir, fill up with hydrarinquage - then do the Citaerobics and bleed the brakes.
The citaerobics will flush the innards of the lift cylinders.
If you are the nitty pitty type - you could do the hydra.... twice.
Note that genuine Citroen Hydra.... is ....... RED [:D]
citronut
Posts: 10937
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom east sussex
My Cars:
x 92

Post by citronut »

citroen say in an emergency you should use a very low viscosity engine oil,i have never known them to say use ATF,also if some one has put the old red cit/fluid in it will probably cause damage to all the seals it comes into contact with as it is veggy/oil and LHM is mineral oil,best just flush the system properly
regards malcolm
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 983

Post by RichardW »

I seem to remember AlanS putting ATF in a CX some time back. I think it worked wonders on cleaning the system out!
User avatar
Kowalski
Posts: 2557
Joined: 15 Oct 2003, 17:41
Location: North East, United Kingdom
My Cars: Ex 05 C5 2.0 HDI Exclusive 145k
Ex 97 Xantia 1.9TD SX 144k
Ex 94 Xantia Dimension 1.9TD 199k

Post by Kowalski »

In the US where LHM is difficult to get, there is an aircraft hydraulic fluid that is sometimes recommended as a suitable replacement, it is a little more viscous than LHM so it isn't an ideal substitute in cold climates. Its proper name is Mil Spec 5606 but it's commonly referred to as red oil because of it's colour, I wonder whether somebody could have made the subsitution because LHM won't exactly be abundant in New Zealand.
Does ATF have a distinctive smell? If it does you'd should be able to tell whether its ATF or not purely by scent.
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AndersDK</i>

Just empty & clean the reservoir, fill up with hydrarinquage - then do the Citaerobics and bleed the brakes.
The citaerobics will flush the innards of the lift cylinders.
If you are the nitty pitty type - you could do the hydra.... twice.
Note that genuine Citroen Hydra.... is ....... RED [:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I thought hydraflush was orange ? I don't think I'll bother with Hydraflush, mainly because I have been unable to obtain it in NZ. Both the local Citroen (3rd party) agents and the indy agent that I normally use for parts don't have hydraflush, and from what you say there is a chance that what is in there could be hydraflush, so I think I'll just do a thorough clean and replace with LHM...
Regards,
Simon
bxbodger
Posts: 1455
Joined: 23 May 2003, 03:34
Location: Lovejoy country (Essex!!)
My Cars:
x 1

Post by bxbodger »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">citroen say in an emergency you should use a very low viscosity engine oil,i have never known them to say use ATF<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I stand corrected-I could have sworn it said ATF, but I just went and looked-it does say 10 or 20 monograde. I'm sure Iv'e seen ATF somewhere, though, maybe haynes.
Whatever it is, At least it doesn't sound like brake fluid!!![:)][:)]
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kowalski</i>

In the US where LHM is difficult to get, there is an aircraft hydraulic fluid that is sometimes recommended as a suitable replacement, it is a little more viscous than LHM so it isn't an ideal substitute in cold climates. Its proper name is Mil Spec 5606 but it's commonly referred to as red oil because of it's colour, I wonder whether somebody could have made the subsitution because LHM won't exactly be abundant in New Zealand.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
It's possible I guess, although unlikely. LHM is actually not hard to obtain in NZ, although its certainly not something that a corner service station would have on the shelf, and it is expensive...(about the same cost per litre as an expensive high grade synthetic engine oil)
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Does ATF have a distinctive smell? If it does you'd should be able to tell whether its ATF or not purely by scent.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Well since I've never smelt ATF before and I don't have a very good sense of smell, I don't know. But Dad seems to think it smells like ATF, although that is just going by his memory...
Regards,
Simon
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

Given that the wrong oil may be in there rather than just dirty LHM, does anyone have any advice on how to be a bit more thorough than normal getting as much as the original oil out without it coming back and contaiminating the new oil ?
After changing the oil and cleaning the tank/filter etc, I've been told to leave the overflow pipes going into a second container and briefly running the engine and watching to see the overflows change colour, then stopping, reconnecting the pipes that have changed back to green, and so on, to prevent old oil circulating back into the tank. I got a little bit of extra oil so that I won't run out doing this.
The main problem I can see is unless I'm really careful I could end up in a situation where there is far to much return coming back and no way to stop it in time before the container filled up, and a big mess [;)]
Any suggestions on the best procedure ? The hoses to the tank also look like they're not really long enough to be able to easily put them into a different container nearby...
Regards,
Simon
citronut
Posts: 10937
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom east sussex
My Cars:
x 92

Post by citronut »

as your not sure what is in your system,i would try very hard to find some hydraflush and install it in your system,run the car for 1000 miles then do it again with more flush before re/installing LHM,mainly because if it is vegatable oil it certainly will not do the seals in system any good at all,also dont try to pump fluid out of system without fluid going back in,because if you run pump dry it will do it a lot of no good
regards malcolm
alan s
RIP 2010
Posts: 2542
Joined: 26 Jan 2001, 15:53
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 6

Post by alan s »

It may be a case of someone getting stuck out in the never nevers on a public holiday and using ATF as a get home option and then deciding to leave it because it seemed to be going OK.
I was caught out in western New South Wales about 5/6 hours away from the nearest LHM supply one Sunday when driving a car back from Sydney when I swapped a sphere over that I had in the car only to discover that the cylinder had a stripped thread on it and it pumped itself dry. I went to a servo and bought a couple of litres of ATF and drove 1200 klms home on it that day. A couple of weeks later, I decided I'd better get rid of it so I emptied the tank and found it was pretty black in there so washed it out, refilled with the ATF and recleaned it the following weekend. I then flushed it right through the system via the brake bleed nipples and did a further 30,000 without problems. Both are mineral based but I used Dex3 which with hindsight and with the knowledge I now have of ATFs, I would have used Dex2 as a better option if I were to have to do it again. Dex3 even in autos it's not suited to seems to turn black in a short time; kinda like boiling rhubarb in an aluminium saucepan.
Dex3 seems to have some pretty savage friction enhancers in it that I feel may cause a few dramas if used long term but chances are you'll find that's all it is and if my car was anything to go on, possibly all it did was give it a good flushing out.
Alan S
ubg43
Posts: 10
Joined: 05 Sep 2005, 12:06
Location: Australia
My Cars:

Post by ubg43 »

I would be prepared to bet your Dad is right - the use of ATF as a substitute for LHM is a common practice amongst some idiots.
Dont stress too much - just change the fluid and clean the tank filters - if you dont know how to bleed the system on your car - get the manual or let your citroen dealer do it (remember you have to bleed the brakes as well).
Good luck and enjoy your new(ish) car :-).
czenda
Posts: 136
Joined: 07 Oct 2004, 00:17
Location: Czech Republic
My Cars:

Post by czenda »

If there is even the slightest chance to get Hydraflush (Hydraurincage), I would recommend to flush the system first. Citroen dealers should have it in their warehouses - maybe they just do not know they have it there.
It does wonders.
Post Reply