My ZX has failed to proceed! Part II

uhn113x · Post by **uhn113x** » 16 Aug 2005, 17:57

Hi Folks
My ZX TD, with no warning, started up, then immediately stopped, and then would not fire at all. Quelle horreur! [:(!]

I had a quick look, lunchtime today, thinking it had to be either fuel problem or stop solenoid.
On checking, fuel is coming out of filter where it goes to the pump, and the stop solenoid gives a healthy clunk when I torn the key on and off (Bosch pump). Assuming the solenoid is the bit with 2 wires on a hexagon on top of the end of the pump furthest from sprocket end.
My next check is to make sure fuel is actually getting to the pump union and unscrew an injector pipe and see what happens.
Given that the starter turns it perfectly, and the heater plugs are working, but it does not fire at all, has anyone any ideas?
TIA

Post by **RichardW** » 16 Aug 2005, 18:11

Is the camshaft still going round....????
I had a similar problem with a BX TD with a sezied alternator - stalled and wouldn't restart as it couldn't turn over fast enough.
If it's a Bosch pump, a bit of air causes all sorts of starting woe - even if the failure is on the return side.

uhn113x · Post by **uhn113x** » 16 Aug 2005, 18:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RichardW

Is the camshaft still going round....????
I had a similar problem with a BX TD with a sezied alternator - stalled and wouldn't restart as it couldn't turn over fast enough.
If it's a Bosch pump, a bit of air causes all sorts of starting woe - even if the failure is on the return side.
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Hi Richard
Not tried camshaft yet.[:(][:(][:(]
Turns over fine.
What does happen is the bulb takes quite a bit of pumping to go hard - say 19 times, but when it works normally, it takes a few goes even though it starts OK - do you think that is maybe a clue. and is it the bulb itself or a leak somewhere else (no leaks spotted)?

Post by **Peter.N.** » 16 Aug 2005, 18:44

If its the dreaded camshaft problem, the engine will turn over faster than normal with apparantly no compression, if it turns over normally, your next port of call would be as you say, to check for fuel at the injectors.

Post by **RichardW** » 16 Aug 2005, 18:49

Mike,
20 or so pumps seems excessive - I'd normally expect this after changing the diesel filter. Normally I'd expect it to start though if you pumped it up first (assuming an air leak) - maybe you could try cranking and pumping at the same time. Odd that is ran for a while then stopped, normally they just won't start if there's an air problem (although I guess there's a case that if it's drained all the fuel back then you will get a bit in the back of the pump that will make it run, then it stops when no more is coming through). Have you looked in the fuel filter?
Cracking off the unions sounds like a good plan to see if anything comes out. Might be that the end has dropped off the solenoid, so although the electric part is operating, the mechanical bit might not be.

uhn113x · Post by **uhn113x** » 16 Aug 2005, 18:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Peter.N.

If its the dreaded camshaft problem, the engine will turn over faster than normal with apparantly no compression, if it turns over normally, your next port of call would be as you say, to check for fuel at the injectors.
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Hope not, Peter - I did change the cambelt in May, and this fault appeared when I tried to start it. Were you talking about the belt?

uhn113x · Post by **uhn113x** » 16 Aug 2005, 19:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RichardW

Mike,
20 or so pumps seems excessive - I'd normally expect this after changing the diesel filter. Normally I'd expect it to start though if you pumped it up first (assuming an air leak) - maybe you could try cranking and pumping at the same time.
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Not thought of that - will try it. It pumps up a few times again when I leave it for about 10 seconds, so there is what sounds like an air problem.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Odd that is ran for a while then stopped, normally they just won't start if there's an air problem (although I guess there's a case that if it's drained all the fuel back then you will get a bit in the back of the pump that will make it run, then it stops when no more is coming through).
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It only started to fire a few times, then would not fire at all.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Have you looked in the fuel filter?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Not yet - it was a quick 20 minute check at lunchtime! I may have a look at it tonight, but what was coming out when I pumped it looked like decent fuel.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Cracking off the unions sounds like a good plan to see if anything comes out. Might be that the end has dropped off the solenoid, so although the electric part is operating, the mechanical bit might not be.
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I have a feeling that that may be the problem - do you know if it all comes off easily?
TIA

uhn113x · Post by **uhn113x** » 17 Aug 2005, 00:05

Okay, people - elle marche!
Checked injector pipe - some fuel came out.
Saw that pump was running (sigh of relief)

Richard's idea worked! Pumped and cranked, and it ran perfectly.

It seems as though the bulb needs about 10 seconds immediately after the engine is stopped, and never really goes hard.
Took fuel filter off - it is full of fuel - does this mean the actual bulb is faulty? Does it have valves in it? No traces of fuel leaks anywhere.
TIA

tomsheppard · Post by **tomsheppard** » 17 Aug 2005, 03:10

Your ZX has delusions of grandeur Mike! Failed to proceed indeed.[:D]

uhn113x · Post by **uhn113x** » 17 Aug 2005, 16:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tomsheppard

Your ZX has delusions of grandeur Mike! Failed to proceed indeed.[:D]
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Those who know me, Tom, would say 'He would have to throw that one in, wouldn't he'!! [;)]
I have concluded that the problem must be the squeezy thing, so one is on its way from GSF - surprisingly, it has started OK ever since, albeit a bit smoky and misfiring for 10 seconds or so.

wilkobob · Post by **wilkobob** » 17 Aug 2005, 16:51

If its failing to go "hard" then id say its had it, it does have a one way valve in it. I put a new one on my old ZX, and it cured all my starting problems.

uhn113x · Post by **uhn113x** » 20 Aug 2005, 22:41

Right, folks - car now runs, thanks to Richard's tip to squeeze and crank (sounds like a dodgy firm of solicitors!).
As you may remember, when I pumped up the primer, and left it for 10 seconds or so, it took another 5 or 6 pumps.
I replaced the priming pump (GSF website - next day [:D]).
I did notice that the leakoff pipe on the fuel pump was dripping slightly, so I pushed it on - OK.
Starting from cold, we get a few splutters and smoke for a few seconds - give it a squeeze first, it starts normally, so there is a lack of fuel initially.
Still takes a few pumps to pump it up, so I clamped the hose from the filter to the injector pump (Bosch) - left it for an hour, it stayed pumped up, so the problem was after the pipe from the filter. Pipe itself is fine and there are no fuel leaks.
So, why does the fuel lose pressure in the injector pump? Was the total non-starting due to the loose leakoff pipe?
I have heard that Bosch pumps are fussy about injector leakoff pipes - why? Wonder if it can be the ones on the injectors? Anyone know the precise routing of all the fuel returns?

tomsheppard · Post by **tomsheppard** » 21 Aug 2005, 01:14

Most of the fuel goes back to the tank because it is supposed to. Is this a matter of the pump being siphoned due to air getting in on the supply side or is it hiding a dodgy glow plug or two? The starting roughly sounds like the latter. If Bosch pumps shed their leakoff pipes, then the fuel consumption rises alarmingly, according to a friend who usually knows what he's on about.

Stinkwheel · Post by **Stinkwheel** » 21 Aug 2005, 01:20

have to agree with Tom here,
Possibly the bulb is shafted and causing some seep back but the lump running for little while at start just points to that old favourite 'glowplugs'
I know all about them, my other halfs nissan eats them, yet our old 200,000 mile Visa D never ever needed any, at all.

uhn113x · Post by **uhn113x** » 21 Aug 2005, 12:56

Tom
I appreciate what you are saying about the return.
The glowplugs are definitely OK - Beru nearly new - it cannot be these, as if you pump the bulb while you crank it, it starts and runs without any hesitation.
Tom & Matt
The bulb is new, and the old one works fine if you test the valves. As I said, if I clamp the pipe between filter and injector pump, bulb pumps up and stays. If you try this normally, it needs pumping again several times after a few seconds.
I am sure that there is something about the leak-off pipes that allow air to get in - a post from 2003 (Dave Burns) mentioned a similar problem.
I think I will just replace the ones on the injectors, but I would like to know why this happens as well as fixing it!