Hi
Another brake query I'm afraid.
1993 Xantia 1.9d.
I have had this problem since I bought the car and I have had the brake pads and discs and the Accumulator changed as I was told these would be the problem. But after a day the problem arises again.
I have done the modification to the brake pedal but on braking the brakes bite then release then bite again. At normal speed this isn't a problem but when braking hard the car slows dramatically then releases the brakes and then brakes again. Seems a bit worrying and probably dangerous!
The brake pedal "bounces" up and down at the same time. In fact on a hill if I hold the brake peadl hard my foot goes up and down with the peadl "Pulsing".
The strange thing is that when the new spheres were put in the problem disappeared for a day, and when the new accumulator was fitted the same thing happened.
Citrobics doesn't seem to help (up and down 5 times).
The car hisses when it lowers itself after a run, (it has no anti-sink valve), could this be air getting into the system and is it normal?
Does anyone have any idea what else I can do?
Thanks
Mark
Surging brakes - Xantia
Moderator: RichardW
ABS should be a rapid pulse and shouldn't come in unless braking extremely hard on dry roads. My BX one will generally lock a wheel before releasing (I notice the yelp)but once its operating deceleration isn't necessarily very good (well it doesn't seem very dramatic and I don't feel like practicing with it)
New LHM (or even the introduction of a little) does tend to make the thing feel good for a little while until it gets mashed up again.
Firstly my old favorite - I know you have a new accumulator sphere but is it working properly - try sitting in the boot - run engine for a couple of minutes with the car at normal height, turn off and sit in the boot - it should sink and rise again after about 30 secs - just the same as it does with the engine running. If it doesn't it may be sphere or alternatively non-return ball valve which can easily be re-seated.
How frequently does the regulator tick? Does it slow when the car is raised to full height?
The other possibility is air in the front brake circuit - bleed the front brakes - instructions elsewhere. Air often makes the brakes feel slow to release.
jeremy
New LHM (or even the introduction of a little) does tend to make the thing feel good for a little while until it gets mashed up again.
Firstly my old favorite - I know you have a new accumulator sphere but is it working properly - try sitting in the boot - run engine for a couple of minutes with the car at normal height, turn off and sit in the boot - it should sink and rise again after about 30 secs - just the same as it does with the engine running. If it doesn't it may be sphere or alternatively non-return ball valve which can easily be re-seated.
How frequently does the regulator tick? Does it slow when the car is raised to full height?
The other possibility is air in the front brake circuit - bleed the front brakes - instructions elsewhere. Air often makes the brakes feel slow to release.
jeremy
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jeremy</i>
ABS should be a rapid pulse and shouldn't come in unless braking extremely hard on dry roads. My BX one will generally lock a wheel before releasing (I notice the yelp)but once its operating deceleration isn't necessarily very good (well it doesn't seem very dramatic and I don't feel like practicing with it)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Malfunctioning ABS can be eliminated as a cause by simply pulling the ABS fuse out and going for a (careful) test drive. The brakes should be no worse than a non-ABS model.
I did this myself when trying to diagnose poor brake bite on my car, as the ABS tends to mask the symptoms of brake imbalance and other general braking problems. (Difficulty locking the front wheels with the ABS disabled is a sign that the brakes aren't working properly for example)
Once all the other problems are eliminated, the ABS can be re-instated.
If the on/off action is still there with the ABS disabled, its not the ABS system playing up...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Firstly my old favorite - I know you have a new accumulator sphere but is it working properly - try sitting in the boot - run engine for a couple of minutes with the car at normal height, turn off and sit in the boot - it should sink and rise again after about 30 secs - just the same as it does with the engine running. If it doesn't it may be sphere or alternatively non-return ball valve which can easily be re-seated.
How frequently does the regulator tick? Does it slow when the car is raised to full height?
The other possibility is air in the front brake circuit - bleed the front brakes - instructions elsewhere. Air often makes the brakes feel slow to release.
jeremy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I'd agree with this. I've seen cases of "reconditioned" accumulator spheres go pop anything between hours and days after being fitted (just ask Crispy on this forum for an example!) and the accumulator sphere really does need verifying (sit in the boot test etc) as it is the number one culprit for this kind of problem.
In fact I noticed something similar on my car recently where the braking bite was a bit intermitant - not an obvious pulsing as described here, but a very noticable lack of bite *sometimes* when braking. Just fitted a new accumulator sphere today and the brakes are MUCH better and more consistant.
And my old accumulator still had some gas in it (my guess is about 20% of normal) so I would hate to think how much the brakes would pulse with a punctured accumulator...
Regards,
Simon
ABS should be a rapid pulse and shouldn't come in unless braking extremely hard on dry roads. My BX one will generally lock a wheel before releasing (I notice the yelp)but once its operating deceleration isn't necessarily very good (well it doesn't seem very dramatic and I don't feel like practicing with it)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Malfunctioning ABS can be eliminated as a cause by simply pulling the ABS fuse out and going for a (careful) test drive. The brakes should be no worse than a non-ABS model.
I did this myself when trying to diagnose poor brake bite on my car, as the ABS tends to mask the symptoms of brake imbalance and other general braking problems. (Difficulty locking the front wheels with the ABS disabled is a sign that the brakes aren't working properly for example)
Once all the other problems are eliminated, the ABS can be re-instated.
If the on/off action is still there with the ABS disabled, its not the ABS system playing up...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Firstly my old favorite - I know you have a new accumulator sphere but is it working properly - try sitting in the boot - run engine for a couple of minutes with the car at normal height, turn off and sit in the boot - it should sink and rise again after about 30 secs - just the same as it does with the engine running. If it doesn't it may be sphere or alternatively non-return ball valve which can easily be re-seated.
How frequently does the regulator tick? Does it slow when the car is raised to full height?
The other possibility is air in the front brake circuit - bleed the front brakes - instructions elsewhere. Air often makes the brakes feel slow to release.
jeremy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I'd agree with this. I've seen cases of "reconditioned" accumulator spheres go pop anything between hours and days after being fitted (just ask Crispy on this forum for an example!) and the accumulator sphere really does need verifying (sit in the boot test etc) as it is the number one culprit for this kind of problem.
In fact I noticed something similar on my car recently where the braking bite was a bit intermitant - not an obvious pulsing as described here, but a very noticable lack of bite *sometimes* when braking. Just fitted a new accumulator sphere today and the brakes are MUCH better and more consistant.
And my old accumulator still had some gas in it (my guess is about 20% of normal) so I would hate to think how much the brakes would pulse with a punctured accumulator...
Regards,
Simon
Simon
The more I think about the functioning of the accumulator and its importance with regard to the operation of the brakes and it being the prime source of power for ABS operation especially on later twin outlet pump cars the more I think it should be replaced as a mater of course after (say) 2 years, and tested (by the sitting in the boot test) say every 3 months.
Some of the faults people have and turn out to be accumulator are really horrifying.
Glad to hear you're getting yours sorted!
jeremy
The more I think about the functioning of the accumulator and its importance with regard to the operation of the brakes and it being the prime source of power for ABS operation especially on later twin outlet pump cars the more I think it should be replaced as a mater of course after (say) 2 years, and tested (by the sitting in the boot test) say every 3 months.
Some of the faults people have and turn out to be accumulator are really horrifying.
Glad to hear you're getting yours sorted!
jeremy
Hi Guys
Sorry but my car does not have ABS.
The Accumulator is fine, (engine off after run sit on boot up it goes!)
Pedal pulses if foot kept on it and makes a hss,hss,hss sound.
As I said after front suspension spheres changed, and after accumulator fitted, problem went away each time for a day or so. Also there's that hissing when it sinks, is it suposed to do that?
Any other ideas?
Mark
Sorry but my car does not have ABS.
The Accumulator is fine, (engine off after run sit on boot up it goes!)
Pedal pulses if foot kept on it and makes a hss,hss,hss sound.
As I said after front suspension spheres changed, and after accumulator fitted, problem went away each time for a day or so. Also there's that hissing when it sinks, is it suposed to do that?
Any other ideas?
Mark
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mark g</i>
Hi Guys
Sorry but my car does not have ABS.
The Accumulator is fine, (engine off after run sit on boot up it goes!)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Good.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Pedal pulses if foot kept on it and makes a hss,hss,hss sound.
As I said after front suspension spheres changed, and after accumulator fitted, problem went away each time for a day or so.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Thats very strange indeed. Do you get the same pulsing on the pedal if you turn the motor off just before pressing and holding the brake pedal ? (That would eliminate any pulsing from the pump)
About the only thing I can think of is air in the system - and changing spheres will introduce some air and/or move any already trapped air around.
You did Citreobics, but did you try bleeding the front and rear brakes ? In particular the rear brake pressure has a big effect on how hard the pedal is to push and if there is a lot of air in the back brake lines, while the air is being compressed the pedal will be lighter than normal then may kick back slightly once the air is compressed.
Definately worth bleeding the brakes if you havn't tried already as you've eliminated most of the other possibilities already. Make sure on the back brakes you bleed a decent amount of oil through as the pipes are quite long - all the way from the rear suspension to the brake pedal and back to the back brakes. (I used a small plastic peanut butter jar with a hose attached in the top)
Another thing you could try, a bit of a long shot - which one other person here had success with (near the end of the "Terrible Xantia Brakes" message thread) is to turn the motor off and keep depressing the brake pedal fully and back until all the stored pressure is used up.
You'll know when this is the case because the pedal will stop making that "slurping" noise as you release it from full depression and it will get a lot lighter. We're not quite sure how this fixed his problem, but we suspect it bled some air out of the brake valve unit itself.
See the posts by Pete Wood, here:
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... hichpage=6
Some brake valve units have a bleed nipple on them (such as on the CX), but I don't think the one on the Xantia has one, at least I can't see one.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Also there's that hissing when it sinks, is it suposed to do that?
Any other ideas?
Mark
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If you mean you get out, and then when the car corrects the height back to normal it makes a gentle hiss, then yes, that is perfectly normal, its not a sign of air, but simply the sound of high pressure oil travelling very fast through very small diameter pipes.
The non Hydractive 2 models have pipes whose internal dimensions are only about 1.6mm, so the oil velocity is very fast around tight bends in the pipe making a hiss. Hydractive 2 models (at least my one) don't seem to make this noise as they use much fatter pipes and therefore the oil velocity is lower...
Regards,
Simon
Hi Guys
Sorry but my car does not have ABS.
The Accumulator is fine, (engine off after run sit on boot up it goes!)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Good.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Pedal pulses if foot kept on it and makes a hss,hss,hss sound.
As I said after front suspension spheres changed, and after accumulator fitted, problem went away each time for a day or so.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Thats very strange indeed. Do you get the same pulsing on the pedal if you turn the motor off just before pressing and holding the brake pedal ? (That would eliminate any pulsing from the pump)
About the only thing I can think of is air in the system - and changing spheres will introduce some air and/or move any already trapped air around.
You did Citreobics, but did you try bleeding the front and rear brakes ? In particular the rear brake pressure has a big effect on how hard the pedal is to push and if there is a lot of air in the back brake lines, while the air is being compressed the pedal will be lighter than normal then may kick back slightly once the air is compressed.
Definately worth bleeding the brakes if you havn't tried already as you've eliminated most of the other possibilities already. Make sure on the back brakes you bleed a decent amount of oil through as the pipes are quite long - all the way from the rear suspension to the brake pedal and back to the back brakes. (I used a small plastic peanut butter jar with a hose attached in the top)
Another thing you could try, a bit of a long shot - which one other person here had success with (near the end of the "Terrible Xantia Brakes" message thread) is to turn the motor off and keep depressing the brake pedal fully and back until all the stored pressure is used up.
You'll know when this is the case because the pedal will stop making that "slurping" noise as you release it from full depression and it will get a lot lighter. We're not quite sure how this fixed his problem, but we suspect it bled some air out of the brake valve unit itself.
See the posts by Pete Wood, here:
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... hichpage=6
Some brake valve units have a bleed nipple on them (such as on the CX), but I don't think the one on the Xantia has one, at least I can't see one.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Also there's that hissing when it sinks, is it suposed to do that?
Any other ideas?
Mark
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If you mean you get out, and then when the car corrects the height back to normal it makes a gentle hiss, then yes, that is perfectly normal, its not a sign of air, but simply the sound of high pressure oil travelling very fast through very small diameter pipes.
The non Hydractive 2 models have pipes whose internal dimensions are only about 1.6mm, so the oil velocity is very fast around tight bends in the pipe making a hiss. Hydractive 2 models (at least my one) don't seem to make this noise as they use much fatter pipes and therefore the oil velocity is lower...
Regards,
Simon
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jeremy</i>
Simon
The more I think about the functioning of the accumulator and its importance with regard to the operation of the brakes and it being the prime source of power for ABS operation especially on later twin outlet pump cars the more I think it should be replaced as a mater of course after (say) 2 years, and tested (by the sitting in the boot test) say every 3 months.
Some of the faults people have and turn out to be accumulator are really horrifying.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
In fact you could say that nearly all the faults that Citroen's have with the suspension turn out to be simply manifestations of spheres that have low or no gas...there are a bewildering array of possible symptoms, and the accumulator sphere is often the root of it all...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Glad to hear you're getting yours sorted!
jeremy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yeah me too! Finally the brakes are getting to the point where they feel like Citroen brakes. The rear centre hydractive sphere made a big improvement in the sensitivity, and the main accumulator sphere has made another big improvement, both in sensitivity, and in maximum stopping power - and made considerably more difference than I was expecting.
I am now able to do a really impressive emergency stop with plenty of ABS action and a couple of weeks ago I couldn't get the ABS to kick in at all due to lack of braking power.
And I *still* havn't done the rear pads yet [:D] (They're sitting in a box waiting to be done - bad weather, and replacing the spheres has delayed me) I'm sure they will improve even further when I do...
I also suspect the anti-sink sphere is stuffed, but that will have to wait a little bit for the finances to recover...
Regards,
Simon
Simon
The more I think about the functioning of the accumulator and its importance with regard to the operation of the brakes and it being the prime source of power for ABS operation especially on later twin outlet pump cars the more I think it should be replaced as a mater of course after (say) 2 years, and tested (by the sitting in the boot test) say every 3 months.
Some of the faults people have and turn out to be accumulator are really horrifying.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
In fact you could say that nearly all the faults that Citroen's have with the suspension turn out to be simply manifestations of spheres that have low or no gas...there are a bewildering array of possible symptoms, and the accumulator sphere is often the root of it all...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Glad to hear you're getting yours sorted!
jeremy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yeah me too! Finally the brakes are getting to the point where they feel like Citroen brakes. The rear centre hydractive sphere made a big improvement in the sensitivity, and the main accumulator sphere has made another big improvement, both in sensitivity, and in maximum stopping power - and made considerably more difference than I was expecting.
I am now able to do a really impressive emergency stop with plenty of ABS action and a couple of weeks ago I couldn't get the ABS to kick in at all due to lack of braking power.
And I *still* havn't done the rear pads yet [:D] (They're sitting in a box waiting to be done - bad weather, and replacing the spheres has delayed me) I'm sure they will improve even further when I do...
I also suspect the anti-sink sphere is stuffed, but that will have to wait a little bit for the finances to recover...
Regards,
Simon
Hi
I have tried keeping my foot on the pedal and turning the engine off.
The Pedal PPulsed under my foot, up and down for ages, then just stopped. Back of the car then dropped down, (keeping my foot on the brake held it up). Still have strange braking effect though.
Does this eliminate anything or point to anything?
I had this effect before changing the discs and pads and spheres so it's not that air has got in since then. BUT should the system be bled when changing any of the above? As I don't know if the garage have done it.
Thanks
Mark
I have tried keeping my foot on the pedal and turning the engine off.
The Pedal PPulsed under my foot, up and down for ages, then just stopped. Back of the car then dropped down, (keeping my foot on the brake held it up). Still have strange braking effect though.
Does this eliminate anything or point to anything?
I had this effect before changing the discs and pads and spheres so it's not that air has got in since then. BUT should the system be bled when changing any of the above? As I don't know if the garage have done it.
Thanks
Mark
This is all a bit starge - Early Xantia is virtually the same as a BX with a large single outlet pump shared with steering, the FDV being responsible for splitting off the steering from the brakes and suspension. The FDV is the first component in the circuit and shouldn't be influenced by the accumulator.
You say you can hear rushing - I never can hear anything apart from the pump/regulator rattle as it cycles. Assuming that the warning light behaves properly (on when you start, extinguish after 20 seconds or so and stays out at ALL times thereafter I wonder if you have air geiiting into the system. There is only one route for this and its the low pressure system from the reservoir to the pump. The hose perishes eventually and as its subject to a vacuum it simply lets air in and not LHM out.
Many of the valves in the system are metal to metal without a seal and rely on the viscosity of the LHM to form a seal - and are therefore porous to air.
Have a look in the reservoir if you can and see if there is vigorous bubbling there or milky LHM (looks like an alcopop) (there may be some air from the return system) You can for diagnostic purposes replace the hose with a length of clean garden hose (thanks Anders) and see if things are any different.
If with the engine turned off you put your foot on the brake I wouldn't expect much to happen. Repeated applications will gradudally release pressure but it should take some time. As you may know the front and rear are entirley separate, the front brakes having accumulator pressure available and the rears are fed from the rear suspension and are therefore load sensitive. The pedal operates a simple valve rather than actually pumping as on a normal system.
jeremy
You say you can hear rushing - I never can hear anything apart from the pump/regulator rattle as it cycles. Assuming that the warning light behaves properly (on when you start, extinguish after 20 seconds or so and stays out at ALL times thereafter I wonder if you have air geiiting into the system. There is only one route for this and its the low pressure system from the reservoir to the pump. The hose perishes eventually and as its subject to a vacuum it simply lets air in and not LHM out.
Many of the valves in the system are metal to metal without a seal and rely on the viscosity of the LHM to form a seal - and are therefore porous to air.
Have a look in the reservoir if you can and see if there is vigorous bubbling there or milky LHM (looks like an alcopop) (there may be some air from the return system) You can for diagnostic purposes replace the hose with a length of clean garden hose (thanks Anders) and see if things are any different.
If with the engine turned off you put your foot on the brake I wouldn't expect much to happen. Repeated applications will gradudally release pressure but it should take some time. As you may know the front and rear are entirley separate, the front brakes having accumulator pressure available and the rears are fed from the rear suspension and are therefore load sensitive. The pedal operates a simple valve rather than actually pumping as on a normal system.
jeremy
Hello
Thanks for all of the replies.
I don't think it can be the doseur valve as when the spehres etc were changed the brakes were normal for about a day. If it was the doseur I pressume it would be like it all the time?
I've also checked the LHM tank for bubbles with the engine running but there are none.
I've also put the spring back in the pedal and the brakes seem a tiny bit more controllable, yet if I leave my foot on the brake I can still feel it pump up and down making that hss, hss noise.
Any more ideas?
Thanks
Mark
Thanks for all of the replies.
I don't think it can be the doseur valve as when the spehres etc were changed the brakes were normal for about a day. If it was the doseur I pressume it would be like it all the time?
I've also checked the LHM tank for bubbles with the engine running but there are none.
I've also put the spring back in the pedal and the brakes seem a tiny bit more controllable, yet if I leave my foot on the brake I can still feel it pump up and down making that hss, hss noise.
Any more ideas?
Thanks
Mark
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mark g</i>
Hi
I have tried keeping my foot on the pedal and turning the engine off.
The Pedal PPulsed under my foot, up and down for ages, then just stopped. Back of the car then dropped down, (keeping my foot on the brake held it up). Still have strange braking effect though.
Does this eliminate anything or point to anything?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Not really, as your problem is most unusual.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I had this effect before changing the discs and pads and spheres so it's not that air has got in since then. BUT should the system be bled when changing any of the above? As I don't know if the garage have done it.
Thanks
Mark
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Bleeding the rear brakes is good practice when changing any of the rear spheres as there is the potential for air to find its way into the rear brake feed, but I suspect a lot of people don't bother.
You say that the problem was there previously anyway, so assuming they didn't bleed the rear brakes then any trapped air would be still there.
To be honest - just bleed the back brakes and see what happens, as otherwise a lot of this thread is just idle speculation. If you feel really keen, bleed the front ones too, although they're less likely to cause the problem...
As bleeding the brakes is very easy to do, free (if you do it yourself) and most likely to be the problem, it needs to be eliminated as a possibility before worrying about too many other potentially more expensive or difficult problems...
Jeremy has a good point about the inlet pipe from the resoviour to the pump too - if it has a small crack or leak in it it draws in air rather than leaking oil and would allow air bubbles into the system.
Regards,
Simon
Hi
I have tried keeping my foot on the pedal and turning the engine off.
The Pedal PPulsed under my foot, up and down for ages, then just stopped. Back of the car then dropped down, (keeping my foot on the brake held it up). Still have strange braking effect though.
Does this eliminate anything or point to anything?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Not really, as your problem is most unusual.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I had this effect before changing the discs and pads and spheres so it's not that air has got in since then. BUT should the system be bled when changing any of the above? As I don't know if the garage have done it.
Thanks
Mark
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Bleeding the rear brakes is good practice when changing any of the rear spheres as there is the potential for air to find its way into the rear brake feed, but I suspect a lot of people don't bother.
You say that the problem was there previously anyway, so assuming they didn't bleed the rear brakes then any trapped air would be still there.
To be honest - just bleed the back brakes and see what happens, as otherwise a lot of this thread is just idle speculation. If you feel really keen, bleed the front ones too, although they're less likely to cause the problem...
As bleeding the brakes is very easy to do, free (if you do it yourself) and most likely to be the problem, it needs to be eliminated as a possibility before worrying about too many other potentially more expensive or difficult problems...
Jeremy has a good point about the inlet pipe from the resoviour to the pump too - if it has a small crack or leak in it it draws in air rather than leaking oil and would allow air bubbles into the system.
Regards,
Simon
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