Xantia valve noises and oil consumption

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tka
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Xantia valve noises and oil consumption

Post by tka »

My Xantia 2.01 - 16v consumes oil around 0.5 - 0.7 litre (half stick) per 4000 km. Is it normal? There was also some noise from valves before I changed the oil. After the change the noise dissappeared. Now I have driven 4000 km with new oil (Mobil 1 Rally Formula - fully synthetic 5W-40) and there is valve noise sometimes again... not always. The valve noise is quite sharp. I don't want to use other than fully synthetic oil because here is cold in winter. I have thought to change the different oil next time.
thakfully Tero
Tero
NiSk
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Post by NiSk »

I think a Citroën garage would say that was an exceptable oil consumption. The question is, where is it going? Are you leaving drops of oil after you where you park, or is it all going out of the exhaust? The most common cause of high oil consuption (apart from leaks) is worn valve seals (especially with PSA cars) but worn piston rings would have the same effect. If you get the compression checked with a cold engine, you will be able to tell if it's the piston rings or the valve seals.
//NiSk
tka
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Post by tka »

There is no other ways than exhaust possible. There is no leaks, there is no oil mixed with coolant. So, valve seals are most likely alternative. Thanks.
Tero
alex123
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Post by alex123 »

My 2.0 16v 1997 Xantia used to burn oil on start up from cold. When the timing belt snapped and bent twelve valves I replaced the valve stem seals at the same time. This has cured the cloud of blue smoke in the mornings. I now go the 9000 miles between oil changes without using any oil, not bad for an engine that has done 80,000 miles.
alan s
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Post by alan s »

I wouldn't lose any sleep over the consumption; it's really not all that bad.
Basically, valve stem seals will blow it out when you start up first thing in the morning and when you accellerate after a period of decelleration such as the bottom of a long hill. Rings usually blow it out under heavy load or accelleration. (Blue smoke that is.)
You haven't stated the mileage your car has done, but it would sound as though you have been content to spend money on quality oil & regular services. This being the case, it is doubtful that the valve stems would be leaking providing the car hasn't done mega miles. The 16V motors are not as susceptible to valve stem seal wear as the 8s mainly due to the quality of the seals and the components in general.
The rattle I would put down to the hydraulic tappets. These can tend to get a bit noisy as the oil starts to break down and the partially stick. I have seen early Ford 200 cu inch motors stripped and mechanics go looking for blown pistons they have been so noisy. It will eventually mean that the head will have to come off and these cleaned, freed up & some possibly replaced. Does the car do a lot of stop & start motoring? as this seems to aggravate this problem. Sometimes a good long run will temporarly solve that symptom.
If the head does eventually come off, the valve stem seals would also be replaced as a matter of course. Incidentally as we recently discovered; it is impossible to replace valve stem seals on a 16V head in-situ regardless of what anyone may tell you.
Keep up using the good quality oils and change them regularly (5 - 8000 klms)...I don't believe in faith healing when it comes to cars but in this instance, this is one complaint that could self cure if treated the correct way as I've outlined.
Alan S
JohnCKL
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Post by JohnCKL »

I don't know whether this will help. In my Japanese car, I used to have my engine overheating due to the radiator water being boiled off as the engine was running too hot. I poured in a small bottle of thick Bardahl 2 engine oil additive and the engine stopped over heating, the radiator water didn't boil off, even after I changed the engine oil and that was a few months ago. This is one case where engine oil additive worked. Anyone else have any positive experiences from additives?
JohnCKL
alan s
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Post by alan s »

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Anyone else have any positive experiences from additives?
JohnCKL
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
No, but quite a few negative ones.
Alan S
handman

Post by handman »

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I don't know whether this will help. In my Japanese car, I used to have my engine overheating due to the radiator water being boiled off as the engine was running too hot. I poured in a small bottle of thick Bardahl 2 engine oil additive and the engine stopped over heating, the radiator water didn't boil off, even after I changed the engine oil and that was a few months ago. This is one case where engine oil additive worked. Anyone else have any positive experiences from additives?
JohnCKL
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>it is my perception that something that is advertised to do a job as long as you have consulted the dealer as to wether you can use that oil addertive ie:- dont just buy it off the shelf type thing some addins will damage the caterlist, the bad things only happen when you dont read the lable, its worth looking as this could save a lot of cash on some jobs - its not all bad
have a nice day you all
alan s
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Post by alan s »

http://www.fernblatt.com/longhurst/additives.html
Written by a research engineer....Enjoy!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
and you have a nice day too..
Alan S
handman

Post by handman »

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
http://www.fernblatt.com/longhurst/additives.html
Written by a research engineer....Enjoy!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
and you have a nice day too..
Alan S

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>nice reading alan <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> didnt see that site but still it worked for me when i used it, you see people just dont seem to have the time to sit around that extra time to get the oil running round so this is probably why its used - ps im havin a great day thanks hope you are too
alan s
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Post by alan s »

I get very nervous with these things mainly because they cost me 3 engines a few years ago based on a mechanics advice and supposed experiences.
It got even more expensive when one engine was under warranty & failed in mysterious ciecumstances and I had a real big battle to get partial compensation when I didn't tell them I'd used an additive; they told me, based on the type of damage caused. More recently, I have had an involvement, businesswise with a company that had developed the usual "radical new concept, different to all the others" which I refused to be associated with, only to find within a few months that it is now shown as a "discontinued line." I haven't been told the circumstances (no doubt as they don't want to hear "I told you so") but I'm keeping my eye out for something to turn up on that site, as it is a yank company & my bet is that they've possibly had a writ slapped on them...based on my own experiences and that of others I've spoken to, it's too big a gamble for the advertised results.
Alan S
handman

Post by handman »

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I get very nervous with these things mainly because they cost me 3 engines a few years ago based on a mechanics advice and supposed experiences.
It got even more expensive when one engine was under warranty & failed in mysterious ciecumstances and I had a real big battle to get partial compensation when I didn't tell them I'd used an additive; they told me, based on the type of damage caused. More recently, I have had an involvement, businesswise with a company that had developed the usual "radical new concept, different to all the others" which I refused to be associated with, only to find within a few months that it is now shown as a "discontinued line." I haven't been told the circumstances (no doubt as they don't want to hear "I told you so") but I'm keeping my eye out for something to turn up on that site, as it is a yank company & my bet is that they've possibly had a writ slapped on them...based on my own experiences and that of others I've spoken to, it's too big a gamble for the advertised results.
Alan S

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>i must agree with you on that, i would never run my company cars on anything less than what the service recomended as the cost of premeture fail "warranty" you know, but thats buisness - but as those court cases in the USA show you only need to look at something the wrong way and you get a rit - not in this country YET thank heavens, though i would point out that all the development on the oil we use is bassed on addatives to get better performance and longevity from our engines and of course the preverbial emmisions, im sure however the site i looked at was for those against it and would think there are as many for it, a very interesting topic
alan s
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Post by alan s »

"im sure however the site i looked at was for those against it and would think there are as many for it, a very interesting topic"
Read it again; the author is quite open about the fact that he is personally not a fan of additives but leaves the door open for people with personal experiences to write in & he will publish them which he has done. Some do make claims for it as do others against.
I liken it's use to another area based on strange claims and counter claims, that of fluoride in drinking water. There is a set amount in the water, you drink it you get a dose. Someone drinks a set amount per day which supposedly has benefits. Someone else drinks twice as much; this is supposedly better; but someone else drinks that amount & supplements it with tablets & then finds out it is in fact a poison and is harmful to health.
All oils contain additives, that's a fact. What additives they contain; that's a secret. Now if you double the additive, like fluoride in the water, and O/D the engine on it, what started out as a benefit can end up being the equivalent to a poison. That was how the manufacturer explained my warranty rejection.
In the case of Citroen engines, it was always taboo to use friction modified oils when they were in vogue. Engine failures involving them were a common occurrence. The reason given was the additives that the manufacturers were putting in these oils. This being the case, if a major oil company can get it wrong knowing what's in the oil, then how easy for the man on the street to simply grab a bottle of additive, mix it with any brand of oil with unknown additives and add further unknown additives to those already in the oil and be confident that it's going to improve fuel economy, reduce wear & friction, make the engine run cooler and improve the life of the unknown blend of oil.
The advertising and instructions really should start with "Once upon a time.........."
Alan S
handman

Post by handman »

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
"im sure however the site i looked at was for those against it and would think there are as many for it, a very interesting topic"
Read it again; the author is quite open about the fact that he is personally not a fan of additives but leaves the door open for people with personal experiences to write in & he will publish them which he has done. Some do make claims for it as do others against.
I liken it's use to another area based on strange claims and counter claims, that of fluoride in drinking water. There is a set amount in the water, you drink it you get a dose. Someone drinks a set amount per day which supposedly has benefits. Someone else drinks twice as much; this is supposedly better; but someone else drinks that amount & supplements it with tablets & then finds out it is in fact a poison and is harmful to health.
All oils contain additives, that's a fact. What additives they contain; that's a secret. Now if you double the additive, like fluoride in the water, and O/D the engine on it, what started out as a benefit can end up being the equivalent to a poison. That was how the manufacturer explained my warranty rejection.
In the case of Citroen engines, it was always taboo to use friction modified oils when they were in vogue. Engine failures involving them were a common occurrence. The reason given was the additives that the manufacturers were putting in these oils. This being the case, if a major oil company can get it wrong knowing what's in the oil, then how easy for the man on the street to simply grab a bottle of additive, mix it with any brand of oil with unknown additives and add further unknown additives to those already in the oil and be confident that it's going to improve fuel economy, reduce wear & friction, make the engine run cooler and improve the life of the unknown blend of oil.
The advertising and instructions really should start with "Once upon a time.........."
Alan S

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>you put it so cool and law like and of course you are correct, but i think i have had enough of this topic as im sure you have (time to look at someyhing else) ill leave it to the men in the know
tka
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Post by tka »

Thank you alans and others about the tips.
I still have some questions.
I have driven 170tkm with my Xantia and I bought it as used one last May. I asked the earlier users have changed the oils regularly. The oil type I do not know but I presume it have to be fully synthetic because the cold winter.
Yesterday I noticed the valve noises are continuous. I also noticed while I press the gas pedal there comes every time like a creak noise. I think it comes also from valves. DO you know what it is?
When do I know when the cylinder head should come off? Does it break components if I just drive without noticing the valve ticking.
I do drive mainly in the city but also long trips sometimes.
ALANS, you wrote: "The rattle I would put down to the hydraulic tappets. These can tend to get a bit noisy as the oil starts to break down and the partially stick. I have seen early Ford 200 cu inch motors stripped and mechanics go looking for blown pistons they have been so noisy. It will eventually mean that the head will have to come off and these cleaned, freed up & some possibly replaced."
ALANS: "...and these cleaned, freed up & some possibly replaced." Do you mean the hydraulic tappets or valves?
Tero
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