Help! Timing Belt disaster!

ax1527 · Post by **ax1527** » 22 Jul 2005, 00:56

I have just replaced the timing belt on my AX 1.5 Diesel. I had trouble finding the right holes for locking the engine i.e the flywheel locking bolt did not fit right in and I couldn't find any holes for the fuel pump sprocket locking pins to screw into. I reverted to trying the "relative indexing" method i.e I marked the timing belt and the sprockets and transferred the marks to the new belt ensuring that the same number of teeth between the marks etc.
I tensioned the belt (90 degree twist) and turned the engine over by hand several times.
When I tried to start the engine it would only turn over but would eventually start if I pumped the throttle but then it ran very roughly with lots of smoke! Help?

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 22 Jul 2005, 01:20

You're a tooth out somewhere. It's very easy to do on this engine, I managed to do similarly on a 1.4TUD, and bent 2 valves. Oops! I'd suggest you try and find the timing marks. They do exist. According to the book I have for timing belts, the one on the flywheel is an 8mm bolt on the front of the enigne, the camshaft on is at about 4 o'clock on the sprocket, and the injection pump one is at about 2 o'clock.
I'll see if I can scan an image of it.

ax1527 · Post by **ax1527** » 22 Jul 2005, 01:29

Thanks for the advice. I had bought a draper locking pin kit but it looks as if the sprockets the 1.5 are wider than the 1.4 therefore the draper bolts are too short. The Haynes manual states that the flywheel hole is near the starter motor but I have a hole on the other side of the engine i.e at the front but no matter how many times I turned the engine over the locking pin would only engage by a small amount. I assume that as the engine turned over freely by hand, I haven't bent any valves?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 22 Jul 2005, 01:31

You marked up the cam, pump and crank sprockets ?
- and after initial belt tensioning you checked the belt had not moved ?
I'd say on ANY engine it is VERY easy to get the timing a tooth out because the belt will move up from sprockets and place itself where it wants - while you fiddle.

ax1527 · Post by **ax1527** » 22 Jul 2005, 01:36

I marked only the cam and pump sprockets and checked the marks before I put everything back together. I realise that I am probably now suffering the consequences of trying to shortcut the job. Do you think if I try again from scratch but this time using the locking pins I should have better luck or have I put the timing out so much that it will be a trip to the garage to get it fixed?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 22 Jul 2005, 01:47

Hmmm - x-ing my fingers the engine survived that. You had no reference to the crank so I really believe the engine is one tooth out now [:(]
Use your last straw and try time the belt right this time - using the reference indexing - on ALL 3 sprockets.
Trade back that timing tool and get the right one now.

ax1527 · Post by **ax1527** » 22 Jul 2005, 01:59

Thanks for the info. If I try to use the reference indexing (3 sprockets) won't I just be back to square one again as I would be copying the incorrect timing that the engine now has?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 22 Jul 2005, 02:03

Yes !
BTW : whereabouts are you ? A kind nearby member may pass by and offer help !

ax1527 · Post by **ax1527** » 22 Jul 2005, 02:08

So would I be better trying the timing marks on the sprockets and flywheel and using the locking bolts. I'm sorry if I sound a bit of an idiot but having changed belts before (only on petrol engines) I thought the little ax wouldn't pose much of a problem. Do you think that the engine has survived as it turns over freely by hand?

ax1527 · Post by **ax1527** » 22 Jul 2005, 02:10

I'm in Cumbernauld in Scotland.

madasafish · Post by **madasafish** » 22 Jul 2005, 02:28

One tooth out should be ok for valves. I changed belt on 1.4 diesel with no problems using bolts to lock cam, pump and flywheel. Flywheel bolt is on engine front , clutch end, just about 5cm above the sump/block join. I followed Haynes and it was easy peasy.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 22 Jul 2005, 03:36

I think this engine may be rather different and is fitted with adjustable belt pulleys. This came up on here a while ago and I remember thinking it was strange as the enquirer talked of adjustable pulleys and eventually I found the procedure under Peugeot 106 in haynes Diesel engine manual which I somehow acquired some years ago.
I'm reluctant to try and summarise the procedure here as I think I may confuse things further and they run to about 3 pages. What you do have to do is to loosen the bolts on the pulleys and it seems an electronic gauge is needed to set it.
Sorry I can't be more specific - to be honest I've just quickly read the procedure through and am totally confused as to the significance of the bolts - as it says do one thing at one stage and then tells you that that is wrong over the page!
jeremy

rotodiesel · Post by **rotodiesel** » 23 Jul 2005, 02:36

I have just done this job on a 106D 1.5. You need an M6 short stud with a ground "nose" to lock the flywheel at the front of the engine, near the engine speed transducer. The camshaft is locked with an M8 bolt, and the pump sprocket is locked with a 6mm pin - I use a drill shank.
As Jeremy indicates, this engine has adjustable sprockets on the cam and on the pump, which means that you can get the timing exactly right, and also adjust the belt tension without any locked in torque - a brilliant design. A piece of domestic door handle square fits the tensioner adjusting hole.
I did this second belt change at 103k, and changed the rollers and water pump. The rollers were perfect - chunky steel with sealed ball races, but the water pump was a mess and needed doing.
rotodiesel.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 23 Jul 2005, 02:54

only cars with bosh pump have a vernear sprocket on pump,if you have one on cam it is probably a boy racer sprocket fitted,you must put all locking pins in,also i made a tensioner tool by cutting head of a coach bolt then you will have a square end bend the bolt at right angle just behind the square end,you might have to file the square a little bit,i think your ment to mesure from the right angle a certain amount then hang a two pound weight at this point regards malcolm

rotodiesel · Post by **rotodiesel** » 23 Jul 2005, 03:24

This is a '98 car I've known from new - definitely not modified. All the later TUD5 engines have Bosch EP-VE pumps and adjustable sprockets for both the pump and the camshaft. The Haynes manual for the later 106 shows this, but is, as usual full of mistakes. They have obviously done this job on the 1.4 diesel and assumed the 1.5 (iron block) engine is similar, but it's not. The actual job is very straightforward if you can get the awkward cover bolt out (and back).
rotodiesel.