Sump question

VisaGTi16v · Post by **VisaGTi16v** » 18 May 2005, 15:57

Does anyone know if a sump from a gti-6 will fit onto a earlier 1.9 ally block from a bx/405 16v. They are both XU series are they not even though theres different capacity and ally/iron? I ask as I could do with baffling the sump on my visa and I spotted this on ebay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... %3AIT&rd=1 which would be cheaper than having one made or buying a kit from peugeot sport
cheers

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 18 May 2005, 16:49

If you've got access to a mig welder you could baffle up your sump yourself, they aren't difficult to do. Have you considered going for the "ultimate" fully dry sump?
That GTI-6 sump only has 1 baffle and it's not like the baffled sumps I've seen people producing for things like Caterhams or Westfields...

VisaGTi16v · Post by **VisaGTi16v** » 18 May 2005, 16:57

Bit beyond my ability, ive only played with simple welds which werent great

I do have a spare sump though so may let my friend play around. I have good oil pressure at the moment and im not doing the event which I was concerned about which had a very long banked corner so I should be ok for now. As for dry sumps...if you want to sponser me I will get one, no other way due to the money! heh

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 18 May 2005, 17:47

Baffled sumps tend only to help when the car is being thrown around in violent cornering manoevers. In long fast bends (longer than about 10 seconds long) there's a remote possibility that baffling could actually be a hinderance, as the returning oil has to get past the baffle openings to get to the pick-up. The only answer in this case is a dry-sump sustem, which in actual fact is nowhere near as complicated as it sounds.
In a long fast banked bend, you may not need any assistance over an open sump anyway, as the banking should mean that you're not experiencing super high cornering forces. Plus, consider: Is the bend to the right or the left? The XU oil pick up is towards the right (timing belt end) of the engine, and so in left-handers, there is far less chance of starvation than in right-handers. Also, making sure the engine is full right up to the max mark (and possibly a few mm beyond) is a far cheaper and easier way of reducing the likelihood of starvation.
If you do want a baffled sump though, they are indeed fairly easy to make with a pressed sump, some spare sheet steel and a welder. Just make sure the baffles fit round the pick up, and have big enough drainbacks!

VisaGTi16v · Post by **VisaGTi16v** » 18 May 2005, 18:01

Well there was another even which had 1.5 laps of a roundabout going clockwise which would have given me issues but I think I will probably be fine. I keep it brimmed as you say and i didnt tilt the engine anymore over standard, a common error 205 boys make

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 18 May 2005, 19:13

The baffles that I've seen in Caterhams and the like were horizontal baffles at the top around the sides of the sump to stop your oil disappearing up the sump walls in corners, I've seen much more complicated ones in bike engined cars, apparently bike engines aren't designed to cope with any horziontal g force because you lean a bike over when you corner. If you were feeling clever you could design some sort of g-force operated valve on the oil pickup, with a pair of pickups, one on each side. That way you could close the pickup on the inside of the bend when you were cornering since it would be the one likely to suck in air.

VisaGTi16v · Post by **VisaGTi16v** » 18 May 2005, 19:36

Again a bit beyond me heh although I vaguely get it. If you had 2 pick ups though, would it matter at all if one was sucking in air due to no oil, im thinking not at all..? Ive also seen replacement oil pump springs which are stiffer and increase the pressure but as mines sitting exactly where it should be I dont think I will go that route.

ActivaV6uk · Post by **ActivaV6uk** » 18 May 2005, 20:24

pace do a dry sump system for the Mi16 i have wonderd if this is compatable with other engines...
Andy

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 18 May 2005, 20:34

You'd need a valve if you've got two pickups, air is easier to suck than oil so that would get sucked first if one pickup got out of the oil. Thinking about it the valve wouldn't be quite as simple as I originally thought and the consequences of experimenting and getting it wrong wouldn't be good.
Stronger springs won't help your engine one bit when the oil pump is sucking up air instead of oil, they're to give you more oil pressure when your oil pump has oil, but they'll do it at the expensive of using a small amount of horse power.
I wonder whether you could fit a Citroen hydraulic sphere to the oil filter and have a pressure reservoir, I'm sure the pressures would all be completely wrong.

VisaGTi16v · Post by **VisaGTi16v** » 18 May 2005, 20:50

Yep to the bhp loss and I need all I can get heh. Sucking air thing first sounds nasty. A dry sump would indeed be ideal but im on a budget of pennies not thousands. Oh to win the lottery, I quite like the idea of a dry sumped 290bhp Visa. Would be totally undriveable but who cares!

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 18 May 2005, 21:09

Kowalski - you've got something there. I remember manyyears ago seeing a number of products for those racing jaguar XK angines and one was a hydraulic accumulator. This was cylindrical and presumably has a piston and spring inside - engine runs - pumps up accumulator - and compresses spring - pressure level - stays there - pressure drops - discharges oil.
The problem there was I think the very long sump and surge on braking when all the 0il rushed forward. there was usually a plate on top of the oil pan which tended to be at the back of the engine so the oil could run out and on top of the plate which happened to me one day in the peaks going down a steep and windy road. Suddenly oil pressure light comes on and gauge drops - engine was idling and my inclination was to turn it off but I thought - if I do I can't steer this brute or stop it - so just had to let the engine idle and hope - fortunately it didn't seem to do any damage!
jeremy

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 18 May 2005, 21:21

Series Land-Rover engines suffer from exactly this. if you brake even moderatley hard (if your brakes work that well!) then all the oil rushes to the front of the engine, and you get several seconds of no oil pressure. In this case, because the engine is on no-load, it really doesn't matter. Oil starvation with power on is far more serious.
Dry sumping is really not that difficult. It can actually be done with an XU engine reasonably easily. All you actually need is a remote oil filter with hose connections, A scavenge pump, a pressure pump and to be a bit creative with welding up a shallow sump pan with a drain point. I recon you could do it all for not much more than the cost of the pumps, which are not expensive if you look for them outside of the automotive world. There are some other serious benefits too, like the increase in ground clearance due to reduced sump height, and the ability to prime the engine with high pressure oil before starting it.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 18 May 2005, 21:44

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by VisaGTi16v</i>

Oh to win the lottery, I quite like the idea of a dry sumped 290bhp Visa. Would be totally undriveable but who cares!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Do you think it would be more undrivable than that 580 bhp Golf?

VisaGTi16v · Post by **VisaGTi16v** » 18 May 2005, 22:47

heh possibly not but would still be an animal. I mean its mad enough at the moment in the first 3 gears although bizzarely has no more torque steer than when it only had 115bhp just a fraction less traction on the inside wheel if cornering in low gears and trying to put the power down. Really dont know what people must think when I drive it on the road and overtake them, get such weird looks from cars coming the other way