steering problem and accumilator sphere

pete@co.uk · Post by **pete@co.uk** » 14 May 2005, 02:36

hi guys
Just wondered really but there is no clicking or sound at all coming from my accumilator sphere on 19 td xantia n reg is there a problem also the steering feels heaver than normal also the brakes could be a bit better are all these problems associted although the tracking needs sorting getting that done tommorrow morning
pete...........

Post by **Peter.N.** » 14 May 2005, 02:46

The clicking sound actually comes from the pump and regulator, but I know what you mean. Could be that the pump drive belt is slipping giving a reduction in output, that would give you intermittent heavy steering.

pete@co.uk · Post by **pete@co.uk** » 14 May 2005, 03:01

hi peter
Thanks for your responce but the steering feels heavy though out its travel also it pulls badly to the right so thats tracking but i must admit the pump belts could do with replacing it looks like its slowy cracking up also somtimes squeel,s when i start up but whats worrying me is the accumilator sphere ok if not how do i tell. also there are no lhm leaks anywhere and the suspension works ok
let me know what you guys think
pete

weety · Post by **weety** » 14 May 2005, 03:14

how quick does the warning light go out when you first start up? if your sphere is flat er i mean discharged it will go out straight away..... its never wise to have a totally discharged accumulator sphere as that is your emergency brake pressure if your pump belt snaps etc

pete@co.uk · Post by **pete@co.uk** » 14 May 2005, 04:08

hi weety
Thanks for your reply well the stop light goes out about 2 seconds after start up is that about right or is there a problem
pete.........................

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 14 May 2005, 04:28

It can in fact be hard to recognise the typical Citroen ticking behind the noise scheme of a clattering diesel engine.
On top of that there is no rule as to how loud this ticking would be.
If you have no record on the accumulator sphere, the STOP lamp disappears very quick, and the brakes could be better -
THEN it would not be a waste replacing the accumulator sphere.
It's only some £20 and pretty easy to DIY.
On your N-reg the heavy steering would not be caused by the accumulator sphere. Must be the tracking.

pete@co.uk · Post by **pete@co.uk** » 14 May 2005, 04:49

Hi anders
Thank you for your reply well ill give you an update on the tracking tommorrow but i could try replacing the accumilator sphere to see if it makes any differance but the thing is i don,t know how to tell if its no good can anyone tell me all i know theres no sound at all from it, also i do own another xantia thats an L reg non turbo diesel and i can hear the accumilator on that also the brakes and steering seem better on that one so is there a problem with the n reg also where are the filters everyone talks about they say they,re on the lhm resovouer (sorry about spelling) but where i could try giving those a clean out as well.
pete...........................

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 14 May 2005, 05:14

There is no rule to tell a flat accumulator - other than a fast ticking from the regulator - which you cant hear [:)]
Sometimes a constant rattle is heard instead.
The mileage does not tell the condition of the sphere.
It's a bit like a headlamp bulb - it wont have a definate mileage.
A known symptom from a flat accumulator sphere on Xantia is a pulsing brake pedal - like the onset of the ABS system (which really kicks back hard when at work !).
The filters are immersed in the LHM reservoir - clipped onto the top manifold which lifts up as an assembly.

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 14 May 2005, 10:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by AndersDK

There is no rule to tell a flat accumulator - other than a fast ticking from the regulator - which you cant hear [:)]
Sometimes a constant rattle is heard instead.
The mileage does not tell the condition of the sphere.
It's a bit like a headlamp bulb - it wont have a definate mileage.
A known symptom from a flat accumulator sphere on Xantia is a pulsing brake pedal - like the onset of the ABS system (which really kicks back hard when at work !).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
One easy way to tell (assuming the rest of the system is in working order) is to pressurize the car to normal height, switch off the engine, and sit on the boot to see if the back suspension will lift you using only the stored pressure in the accumulator.
A new accumulator sphere can easily lift you once, and possibly a second time. A half flat sphere will make a movement to lift you but wont fully succeed, while a very low or punctured sphere will make no attempt to lift you at all without the engine running.
Note: This test is only valid if the rear suspension is in good condition, and is thus soft enough to move a significant amount (at least 25mm) when you sit on the boot. If the rear suspension is very stiff it may not move enough to require a height correction...
If in doubt, try it with the engine running first to make sure that the suspension softness and applied weight are enough to cause an obvious height correction, and if so, repeat the test with the engine off.
Regards,
Simon

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 14 May 2005, 12:41

I agree with mandrake as to testing the accumulator except the thing should drop several inches when you sit in it and there will be a delay (intended) before it rises again.
I doubt if the tracking will contribute to heavy steering and also doubt if it will make any difference to a pull to the centre of the road. If it makes any difference at all the car will tend to run down the camber towards the kerb.
So I think you have a number of faults - 1 being insufficient pressure to operate the steering (Belt, air in the system - faulty reservoir-pump pipe? dirty filter?) and a steering/suspension fault - probably a worn joint.
Jeremy

pete@co.uk · Post by **pete@co.uk** » 14 May 2005, 13:12

Thanks guys
im taking the car in this morning to have the tracking checked the place im taking it to is a steering brake,s and suspension specilist ill get them to check it out also ill try the sphere test.
ill let you all know how i get on
pete.....................

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 14 May 2005, 14:31

the proper test for acumalater sphere is start car set to normal hight turn of engine put hight control to highest if it is good car will rise slightly,this tells you that there is a reserve of presure,olso the ticking is regulator switching on and off,if quiate this indicates no prob regards malcolm

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 14 May 2005, 14:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jeremy

I agree with mandrake as to testing the accumulator except the thing should drop several inches when you sit in it and there will be a delay (intended) before it rises again.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well that goes without saying, and I assumed everyone would realise that from my description [:D]
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I doubt if the tracking will contribute to heavy steering and also doubt if it will make any difference to a pull to the centre of the road. If it makes any difference at all the car will tend to run down the camber towards the kerb.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
On the contrary tracking problems can cause EXACTLY that, in particular, excessive toe-in or toe-out.
When my Dad got his Xantia (it was quite cheap, bought knowing it had some work to be done) the right front lower suspension arm turned out to be bent, due to a front right impact, with the wheel location being visibly too far back. (It measured about 14mm) The steering was a little bit too heavy, particularly near the full lock, and it pulled to the right slightly.
A wheel aligment test before the arm was replaced showed 7mm toe out. After the arm was replaced and the toe-out adjusted the pulling to the right and heavy steering disapeared.
Also tire pressures can affect steering heaviness dramatically too - Later on when he got two new back tires, we found the steering once again heavy. Puzzled (since they were new BACK tires) we checked the pressures on all 4 tires and found that the tyre place had pumped all four wheels up to about 44 psi ! [:(!] (Correct pressures being 34psi at the front, 32psi at the back)
We had got them to swap one of the front wheel rims to the back, and in the process they had obviously decided to pump up all the tires.
The thing that surprised me was that too MUCH pressure could cause very heavy steering - everyone knows that not enough pressure can lead to heavy steering, but too much pressure was a surprise to me.
So check those tire pressures carefully when looking for causes of heavy steering, and don't assume the tire people know what they're doing [:D]
Does anyone else find that tire places just love to over-inflate your tires ? Every single time I've ever had new tires, no matter the type of car, or where I take it to be done, I always get the car back with the MAXIMUM rated tire pressure (written on the sidewall) in the tires instead of the correct pressure. (Usually written in the drivers door sidewell)
I always go and check, and let down the pressure to the correct pressure, so I guess this shouldn't have been a surprise to me, except that HEAVY steering wasn't a clue to me initially that the pressure could be too high...
Are the people that work for tire garages just morons ??? [:D] Or are they trying to make more business for themselves by prematurely wearing out your new tires ? [:D]
Regards,
Simon

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 14 May 2005, 14:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by citronut

the proper test for acumalater sphere is start car set to normal hight turn of engine put hight control to highest if it is good car will rise slightly,this tells you that there is a reserve of presure,olso the ticking is regulator switching on and off,if quiate this indicates no prob regards malcolm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Although that would work, its likely to not give a very clear result with systems with anti-sink valves. Fully opening both height correctors at once is a rather big demand on one accumulator sphere even in good condition, and you'll probably find the source pressure at the accumulator drops below the threshold for the anti-sink valves to stay open before you get much suspension movement.
It can be a bit difficult to judge how good the accumulator is from this as well - you'll only really get a dead/not dead result.
Getting it to make a small correction at the back is well within the capabilities of the accumulator and you can count the number of times it can lift you - in my old GS it used to be able to do it 2 1/2 times at the back, or once at the front for example.
Regards,
Simon

pete@co.uk · Post by **pete@co.uk** » 14 May 2005, 15:07

hi guys
well the tracking was checked on a 4 wheel aligment checker and all was fine spot on he said. i tried the sphere test and turned engine off sat in the boot car went down came back up as it should but not as fast as when engine is running have,nt tried what malcolm has said yet but i will do today i think ill have a go at cleaning out the filters as now i know where to find them also done some citrobotics this morning turning the steering wheel at the same time what the guy did tell me though was as ive got 15 inch alloys on the car with 205 55 15 size tyre,s the car would be better with the origanal 14 inch wheels on
what you guys think becouse ive got my other xantia with 14 inch wheels all i have to do is switch the wheels
pete...................