Is the engine seized?

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gjb02
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Is the engine seized?

Post by gjb02 »

Just purchased a ZX 16v as a non runner, I've put a new battery in it and tried to start it but it's not having it. It just clicks..it did try to rotate a few times but mostly it just clicks.
I put the car in gear and tried to turn the engine by pushing the car, but that wasn't having it either.
What is likely to have seized?
Is it going to be hard to fix?
What's the best way to establish if it really is seized, and where...it has turned partially on cranking a couple of times.
Top, middle or bottom as Michael Barrymore used to say.
tomsheppard
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Post by tomsheppard »

Turned partially? Then it is not siezed. Try reversing it with the motor in a forward gear and the plugs out. If it moves at all, stop there and verify the cam belt.
THis sounds like valves being out of phase to me.
gjb02
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Post by gjb02 »

I take it the lack of movement would be down to the compression in the cylinders, effectively locking the engine. The valves being out of sequence..both shut...when the piston is trying to move in the compression stroke!
Cheers Tom, I'll try that in the morning. It did look like the head had recently been played with..perhaps that why it ended up a non-runner. Incorrectly timed valve gear![8D]
mpr1956
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Post by mpr1956 »

Hi there, I'll venture an opinion.. If there is coolant in the radiator, then seizing through overheating ( i.e pistons to cylinders ) is less likely... more likely is failure of the cambelt.. and the tops of the pistons are contacting the valves preventing the engine turning over.. in which case there will be a fair amount of work to do. A good first step is to establish whether the cambelt has failed ( Take a cambelt cover off and see if this is the case) There should be some more help arriving soon I'm sure. Try to give as much detail as possible, eg water in oil, (or oil in water!)
sooty
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Post by sooty »

Best to take plugs out incase you have water in one of the cylinders preventing it turning over or your valve timing maybe out where the valves are in contact with the pistons.
Best to check before you do any harm.
gjb02
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Post by gjb02 »

I can't remember...how do you know when the crank is locked in the correct rotation?
The cams only lock in one place...and the crank makes two revolutions per cycle..
I guess what I'm asking is how do I know if it's not 180 degrees out??
ItDontGo
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Post by ItDontGo »

If you run an engine with no oil until it stops it should restart again once the bearings have cooled down. The shells might have turned etc but it should restart.
tomsheppard
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Post by tomsheppard »

I'd better explain. I reckon that the valves are touching a piston. If the engine turns so far and stops, then I would turn it backwards, when it does so. That prevents the piston and valve from contacting each other. Once I had proved that the problem was not due to hydraulic lock, (I took out the plugs), then it would almost certainly turn out to be this and having turned the motor backwards to free it, I would then bring it forwards again to ensure that it stopped in the same place. If it did, I would check the valve timing by turning the engine back 90 degrees. That puts the pistons all half way down. I would then remove the cam belt for inspection, and knowing that the valves could be safely operated, I would set up and lock the cams, having first removed then replaced their sprockets, to check for busted woodruff keys. Now I would turn the engine to top dead centre, very carefully, using the crank pulley nut and a straw down the plug'ole
to gauge TDC. THen I would replace the belt with the engine timed up fully.
I would then turn the crank through FIVE full turns, not the conventional two before putting the plugs back in.
Why five, Tom?
Once upon a time, A well known manufacturer redesigned their eight valve engine for sixteen. The crank was the same and its cam chain sprockets were interchangeable.
But the eight valve one had a tooth fewer than the sixteen did. Building engines out of bits, it was only a matter of time before a motor was constructed that ran fine for two revolutions but, as the cam ran slightly faster than half crank speed, the valves tangled
on the third! This will not have happened to you, but I'm a little superstitious about it.
gjb02
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Post by gjb02 »

I take it that the No1 cylinder TDC is that to which you are refering? No1 being the cylinder closest to the pulleys?
What happens if I can't turn the engine backwards...can I assume it's seized then?? Or is this another symptom of valve mis-alignment?
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x 2

Post by jeremy »

No 1 cylinder on these engines is the flywheel end.
I entirely agree with Tom's approach.
jeremy
tomsheppard
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Post by tomsheppard »

You said that it had turned. It is not therefore siezed, only locked. if it locked going forwards, it'll unlock going backwards.
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JohnW
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Post by JohnW »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Why five, Tom?
Once upon a time, A well known manufacturer redesigned their eight valve engine for sixteen. The crank was the same and its cam chain sprockets were interchangeable.
But the eight valve one had a tooth fewer than the sixteen did. Building engines out of bits, it was only a matter of time before a motor was constructed that ran fine for two revolutions but, as the cam ran slightly faster than half crank speed, the valves tangled
on the third! This will not have happened to you, but I'm a little superstitious about it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Tom,
Sounds to me like a lock not a seize. I reply because I didn't know the sprocket tale. Do you have grandchildren? Great fable for those about to be indoctrinated.....
Cheers
JohnW
(Goodwood still beckons. Tickets have arrived in the Antipodes!!)
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x 16

Post by Homer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gjb02</i>

Just purchased a ZX 16v as a non runner, I've put a new battery in it and tried to start it but it's not having it. It just clicks..it did try to rotate a few times but mostly it just clicks.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That sounds like the starter motor not engaging. Used to be a problem on my BXs which I could cure by tapping the solenoid with a large wrench.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I put the car in gear and tried to turn the engine by pushing the car, but that wasn't having it either.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
What gear? Try the highest gear and push it forward. or remove the spark plugs.
But I think we need to eliminate the starter motor before we start assuming anything more complicated.
tomsheppard
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Post by tomsheppard »

The Sprocket tale is true. It happened to me. Saab 900 turbo 8 and sixteen was the motor in question.
gjb02
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Post by gjb02 »

Took out spark plugs, disconnected timing belt...both cams turn fine. However, the crank does not want to turn. I'm 19 stone of man and I was pulling on that bar with all my energy, it briefly budged about a 1/16 of a turn then locked solid...I was turning anti clockwise.
Any more ideas??[V]
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