My Saxo VTR

Loakley78 · Post by **Loakley78** » 21 Sep 2002, 20:33

I am having so many problems with my VTR and i've only had it a few months. After 3 weeks having checked water levels etc, it overheated, I had it flushed/bled etc having been told there was an airlock and I check the level regularly. However when I start the car I can hear this rushing of water sometimes loud sometimes nothing. It has been down to different citroen garages have had no sucess at fixing it. Has anyone else suffered with this problem? I am now thinking of getting a header tank-anyone know where to buy one or if you even can? and having a go at bleding it myself following the manual. Any ideas???

humpy · Post by **humpy** » 21 Sep 2002, 20:37

Use a coke bottle with the bottom cut off as a header tank, make sure you know where all the bleed screws are. Sounds like a leak somewhere have you checked all the unions, does it drip water over night. Park it on clean asphalt or preferably light coloured concrete overnight to find out

Loakley78 · Post by **Loakley78** » 21 Sep 2002, 20:54

Hi, thank you for your suggestion. I did think about doing that as hayes does suggest it. I will check if it is leaking at night it must be, as the last couple of days the level has gone down and i've had to top it up. However I haven't noticed any signs of water having leaked but i'll check. One of the garages also told me that saxos often make this noise and it's to do the heater matrix. To solve it I was told to keep my heater on all the time-I don't think so. Could it be anything to do with the head gasket-do you know what the symptoms are?
Edited by - Loakley78 on 21 Sep 2002 15:55:15

Rich · Post by **Rich** » 21 Sep 2002, 21:43

Hi,
Used to have a Saxo VTR. Symptoms of head gasket failure are coolant in the oil, (creamy white substance forms inside the valve cover, although this can also be caused by short trips!!) and oil in the coolant, visible in the radiator. If the problem is bad, external leakage of the head gasket may be visible too. Make sure when you refill the cooling system that the heater control is set to HOT and that you fill it slowly with the correct mixture of water and anti-freeze, (i use distilled water in my Xantia as the water is very hard where i live!!) and also use the bleed points which i seem to remember are located on the heater hoses and i think there is one on the radiator too. Hope this may be of some help.

gjb02 · Post by **gjb02** » 22 Sep 2002, 21:46

If you do suspect the head gasket but you aren't exhibiting any of the usual signs, there is a test that can be done to detect the presence of Hydrocarbons in your coolant system. The gases that escape the head gasket pressurise the coolant system and cause it to vent, hence the loss. But in mixing compresses combustion gases with coolant it changes the chemical characteristics, I think it has something to do with the acidic level. Any good engine specialist or well equiped garage should have the equipment necessary. They just take a sample of coolant and add some chemical and hey presto! Fairly inexpensive, and could save you a lot of time constantly refilling your coolant system. You may not even notice any change in performance, if the head gasket has gone, it may just be the early signs. The water jackets are the closest things to the cylinder bores, and it only takes a microscopic channel for the gases to escape to the coolant.
Gareth

Loakley78 · Post by **Loakley78** » 24 Sep 2002, 16:57

Well had the above test and it came back negative! Not head gasket. So what is it? I am losing water from the rad as I top it up a little everytime I have used the car. There is no evidence to suggest it is leaking as I can't see any leaks and there are no signs of leakage on the ground. I think it's pushing out water while I am driving it. Could it be anything to fo with the rad-do I need a new one? But would it not be leaking if it has corroded, I hear the VTR rads do wear really quick. The garage are looking into it. Thoughts?

gjb02 · Post by **gjb02** » 24 Sep 2002, 17:43

When you say the water level has gone down, how much do you mean? Do you realise the fill point to the radiator is actually the expansion bottle? It has min and max levels printed on the outside of it. Does the coolant level drop below the min mark? If it sits around the top mark it's fine, any coolant filled beyond that point will be vented on a run. The expansion tank will tend to find its own level even if overfilled. Don't wish to tell granny how to suck 'em, if you already knew that sorry, just had to check.
Gareth

Loakley78 · Post by **Loakley78** » 24 Sep 2002, 18:09

The water level does drop below the minimum and yes I do know that the fill point to the radiator is actually the expansion bottle. So explain the following. After I run the car, the level drops down below the minimum, after it cools down, (I am aware that water expands when hot and therefore wait for it to cool and so I then know the level is down) I fill it up to the max and then I repeat this when the level has dropped. I am careful not to overfill but do know that the tank will find it’s own level anyway. When the coolant level is filled to the max and I start the car, I don’t hear too much rushing water. When the level is down I can hear loads of rushing water when starting the car and applying revs. Please explain someone.

gjb02 · Post by **gjb02** » 24 Sep 2002, 18:27

The reason you can hear the coolant rushing/flowing when the level is low is simply down to the fact that there is space for turbulent current, in the radiator/engine block. Hence the sound of running water/flow. When the coolant system is full there should be no air gaps so the coolant flows within itself without audible turbulence.
Just a few more questions though. How old is the car? Has it had the timing belt changed? Could it be possible the belt was over tensioned leading to premature wear of the water pump bearing? If this is the case coolant would only really leak when you're driving the car,and at idle insufficient levels of coolant would work there way past the worn bearing to indicate a leak. The heat from the block would most likely evaporate any small traces of coolant left over. You could try removing the timing belt cover and inspecting the area around the water pump for signs of coolant leakage. Just another idea.
Regards
Edited by - gjb02 on 24 Sep 2002 13:38:25
Edited by - gjb02 on 24 Sep 2002 13:39:19

Loakley78 · Post by **Loakley78** » 24 Sep 2002, 18:57

Thank you for your idea, the car is an s reg, was 4 years old in August this year. I really didn't expect such a problem like this on a young car. Having read around on other forums other people have had the same problem but it they were told it was the head gasket and paid out. I witnessed the test and know it's definately not that. It hasn't had the timing belt changed and your idea could explain the problem. I will investigate and let you know. Cheers.

volcane305 · Post by **volcane305** » 24 Sep 2002, 21:02

it could be a very small hole in a water pipe or at a joint which only leaks when the car is hot and running the water could be directed onto the engine block and be evaporating/boiling off very quickly.
Run the car til hot jack it up remove any engine covers keep the car running and have a good hoke around you may be able even to smell the coolant. Pull and tug at the hoses.
if you can't find anything put in a good sealant such as novastop. Make sure your coolant is st the correct concentration.

spanners · Post by **spanners** » 25 Sep 2002, 00:27

there was if i remember rightly a citroen buletin on VTR thermostat problems will look into it.

Post by **Jon** » 25 Sep 2002, 01:42

An easy way to progress with this one is with a pressure test, ideally one test with engine hot, and another with it stone cold.
The pressure tester is basically like a bicycle pump with a hose that attaches to a kind of rad cap.
Pressure is pumped into the system by hand. If theres a leak, e.g. a housing or the water pump then coolant will soon p**s out and you'll find your leak. If however pressure drops and theres no external leak then it means that water is leaking internally i.e. through the head or head gasket.
I always suggest a cold engine pressure test because if the say the head has an internal crack, it will lose more water through pressure when cold (the crack will begin to close up when the metal expands under heat)
I don't want to fill you with doom re above, find it more likely that its a air trapped in the system from what you are saying.
On an aside, I was losing water from ye olde faithful ZX a few weeks ago, and no signs of where, and nothing to suggest a head/gasket problem. I nipped round to our local specialist, borrowed his pressure tester, pumped it up, and a torrent of water from the back of the engine. Lying on my back with hot coolant cascading on me I found that the water hosuing at the back of the block was leaking. Another job that I had to do, oh, great joy.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jon Wood
IT Supervisor
GSF t/as Andyspares

gjb02 · Post by **gjb02** » 25 Sep 2002, 19:19

Ah, Mr.Oakley, unless I am mistaken were you also looking for salvation at Saxosports.co.uk , I go there too, 'cause I have a VTR as well as the ZX Td. Most of the lads at that site, and I say lads because they are, have a fair knowledge base. But it's nothing compared to this site. There's a wealth of experience in excess of the last couple of years, on this forum. The Saxo boys are type specific, and it's very much a, ' well, that's what my mate said it was!', mentality. The most important thing though is that you discover the problem and get it fixed asap, if it's not the head gasket, it could soon be!!!
Gareth

Loakley78 · Post by **Loakley78** » 26 Sep 2002, 14:41

Thank you all for your comments, must admit I had a sealant put it after I had the gasket test as the garage are working on a process of elimination and I have noticed the gushing water is now more of a slow flow that I can hear but not as bad. Still really concerned and am going to do much investigation at the weekend before the garage gets hold of it on Tuesday. They suggested a new rad as the next step. Looking at it yesterday I can see a clump of blue/green crystals which suggests a leak, but I can't find it when the engine is running very hot no water pissing out as I would expect. Spanners if you could find any info on that citroen bulletin that would be appeciated. Thank you Jon good point my Dad had thought of this as well and we will attempt this at the weekend. Hope your ZX is sorted. Gareth, it's Miss Oakley by the way. I visited the saxo sports site to find others who have had similar problems and I found the responses to be an interesting read even if the "lads" are of such mentality as you say. I will let you all know what happens on Monday.