Zel's Fleet Blog - BX, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D & 230TE, AC Model 70.

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by Zelandeth »

Hell Razor5543 wrote: 11 Feb 2021, 19:26 If it does come into your possession (regardless whether it is a temporary or permanent thing) have fun with it.

My very first car was a red BX 19TRD (H408 NCF), and although I did not pay that much for her I enjoyed driving. Because she was my first car I wanted one that I would not be scared to drive (for fear of having an accident in an expensive car; I knew somebody who spent over £2000 on his first car and then rode a bicycle 20 miles to and from work, because he was too worried about damaging his car to drive it!), and that I could go from being a safe driver (which is what the driving test is there to prove) to being a good one (I don't know if I am a good driver, but I try to be). She was nice and easy to work on and maintain, with bags of room under the bonnet to work.

The first time I gave my Great Aunt Sylvia a lift in it she was none too certain until I showed her the delights of the hydro pneumatic suspension; because of her age Sylvia found it uncomfortable getting down into and up out of cars. I raised the suspension to full height and the seat height was almost that of her favourite chair! Coupled with the fact the doors opened wider than most other vehicles it made access/egress far easier for her. Given a choice of vehicle she preferred my BX to her sons' Ford Puma (nice sporty little car, but not easy for her to get in and out of). Bob was not put out by this, as he cared deeply for his mother.
My description of the Ford Puma based on the two I've had a shot of was that they're an absolutely cracking car to drive but an utterly horrible thing to be a passenger in. I remember rock hard seats and an incredibly fidgety ride as a passenger, but didn't notice any of that when driving the very same car on a decent road.

I've always fancied a BX but have never really gone looking for one for a couple of reasons. Firstly that it wouldn't really fill any niche in the fleet that's not already well covered by other cars. Secondly that I know that by this age they're generally quite needy cars, and that parts availability isn't exactly stellar. Thirdly that for me to really be interested it would absolutely have to be an early car before they got all sensible and reigned in the near GSA levels of insanity in the interior...and those cars on the rare occasions they did turn up tended to change hands for far more money than I could ever justify. It's a car where I've always preferred the idea of a more basic model to a sporty one...Not sure why, but lazy wafting just feels more in the character of the car than blasting along being a hooligan...that's the Activa's game, and generally the early cars I've seen tended to be the higher performance models.

As this one is more of an automotive refugee seeking safe harbour though I don't feel quite so guilty for potentially having taken my fleet size up to five...The fact it ticks so many of the wishlist boxes though is completely coincidental.

It did however remind me that I really needed to finish getting the paved parking area sorted out. I started that a month or so ago but stopped halfway through as I nearly died of exhaustion. The issue is that the area between where the (very heavy!) paving slabs are currently stacked and the parking area was all completely dug up during the recent bamboo removal work. This combined with the recent wet weather basically means that it's a giant clay bog at the moment...and is about the worst terrain you could be wanting to shift heavy things around on. Just now however that's all frozen solid so far easier to deal with. The downside of this however was that all of the slabs were thoroughly frozen together and required no small amount of brute force to separate. Got there in the end though and after an hour my temporary (um...Two years and counting...) overflow parking area was looking rather less dodgy.

Image

There's going to be some pretty major landscaping work done here at some point in the future so an *actual* driveway extension will probably happen then so this isn't intended to be any way permanent. If we crack a slab or two in the interim I'm really not too bothered - though to be honest those on the nearside of the car have been there for a while now without any issues. The fact that it elevates the car a bit above the grass I like too as it should help with ventilation and reduce the usual tendency for cars to rust so quickly when parked over grass.

The wiring supplies I'd been waiting on arrived today so hopefully I should be able to get the temperature gauge in the Invacar wired in fully next time I've got an hour or so free in the garage.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 73 AC Model 70, 62 Rover 110.
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CitroJim
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by CitroJim »

Zelandeth wrote: 11 Feb 2021, 19:12 it is indeed a BX. To be precise a BX14 RE on an A plate.
Wow :D That's a very early Series 1 and very desirable 8-) Rare as the old proverbial now...

Fingers crossed it all comes off 🤞

It will be a great project for sure :-D
Jim

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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by Zelandeth »

It should be interesting that's for sure. Just poor timing as I *really* wasn't looking for another project at the moment! Given the rarity and I would have assumed desirability of it I was quite surprised that we didn't have people falling over themselves to take it on when the current storage issues cropped up. Here we are though. I do wonder if there's an element of it appealing to a more limited audience though with it being a low spec car, in an unusual colour and being very much a project rather than a GTi in red with a current MOT that's in regular use.

It is a project though. It hasn't been on the road since 2011 for a start, and we know how well these cars take to disuse. At least until the last six months or so it has been properly dry stored, and aside from the usual suspects where some welding has been done in the past it doesn't seem to be rotten. I know there's an issue with the steering rack (I'm assuming it's peeing LHM out of a seal somewhere) which is no doubt going to be a barrel of laughs to resolve as I don't rate my chances of finding a replacement. The more immediately pressing issue however is that it has a horrendous misfire which is currently rendering it all but undrivable.

I think the basic plan of attack at this point will be to investigate and resolve the miss (which doesn't sound like it should be too hard as on a car of this age it should be a proper back to basics bit of diagnosis). I know the plugs, HT leads and distributor cap have been changed and the carb has been overhauled. Anyone know if this engine has points? I would tend to expect them on a 1983 car and don't recall seeing any mention of those being cleaned/gapped or a substitute condenser tried. At least once that's sorted it should make things like getting it onto ramps less of a pain - which is something I'm sure it will need to do several times!

Once it's actually running reasonably well task number 2 will be to go over it with a microscope and put together a two part to do list. The two parts being of course what it needs for an MOT and what it needs to actually function reliably as a car. Part two I'm expecting to be a lot longer than part one.

I think one of the biggest problems that's been faced over the last few years is that the folks who have been trying to get this car sorted out haven't been able to have it stored where they live - so it's not been possible to dip in and out of jobs, which can really hinder progress. Especially when dealing with problems like an elusive misfire which while probably simple to actually sort, can take a few hours of detective work to actually find. It also means reading back through to two threads on it on another forum it's quite hard to keep track of what has actually been done because work has been in such distinct fits and starts. No fault of those involved, it's just how things have worked out. I've tried to do work on a car stored at a remote location before and it was an absolute pain, usually turning what should be (even factoring in the usual interactions with Murphy's Law) half hour jobs into full day sagas.

I did kind of wonder if there was an element of fate involved when noting there's a Stirling Motor Group sticker on the tailgate...the same sticker that there's still a shadow of on the tailgate of the Activa to this day!
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 73 AC Model 70, 62 Rover 110.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by CitroJim »

Certainly rare and very desirable Zel... I have a BX BoL here somewhere that may cover the early BX14. As far as I believe it has the PSA X-series 'Suitcase' engine and these can be fun in that some parts are quite inaccessible given how it sits almost flat in the engine bay...

I'd think it would be electronic ignition with a Hall pickup in the distributor and the Bosch ignition amplifier... I'll try to dig out the BoL later and see...

If that is so then the most likely cause of the misfire is the amplifier... They sit on a heatsink and the thermal transfer paste dries out over time and the heat eventually kills them... They are still freely available as they were used on hoards of cars in the 80s and 90s... Including the Activa ;)
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Can the silver thermal paste (as used on high end heat sinks for PCs) be used, Jim? I know the white stuff not only dries out, but then sets hard so separating the parts (and cleaning off the residue) can be 'interesting'! Silver paste is not expensive, better at conducting heat, and does not go off.
James
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ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by CitroJim »

Hell Razor5543 wrote: 12 Feb 2021, 17:15 Can the silver thermal paste (as used on high end heat sinks for PCs) be used, Jim? I know the white stuff not only dries out, but then sets hard so separating the parts (and cleaning off the residue) can be 'interesting'! Silver paste is not expensive, better at conducting heat, and does not go off.
Yes, I'd say it would be ideal for the job James as there's no insulation considerations... Silver thermal paste is not good in cases where the device is insulated from the heatsink via a mica washer as it's a little conductive...

It would also be ideal for Xantia/XM blower module transistors too...
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by CitroJim »

I've just checked the BoL and all the small petrol engines have electronic ignition with an ignition amplifier and single-ended coil.

The BX14 will have a Ducellier ignition system...

I take it you are aware the gearbox is in the engine sump just like the transverse BL A series and and shares the same oil as the engine...

It even has a set of helical gears, including an idler, to transmit power from the clutch to the gearbox...

You've got to go for this one Zel ;)
Jim

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by RichardW »

Exactly as you describe on our Visa, Jim, which has the 1.1 version of this engine. I'd have thought a dead amp would stop it running, but I suppose it might make it 8 stroke. My Visa never ran right, not sure I got to the bottom of it, but I did find a weep from the top hose had got in the dizzy and seized the advance mech.

We had a 14E as our first BX, and I had a 14E Preview as my first car. The PRN controls look nuts, but work well, if it's got a rev counter, they're especially cool.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by RichardW »

Sounds like you'd be round there with your timing light and dwell meter, Jim🤣
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Zelandeth
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by Zelandeth »

That could be a nice simple answer if the ignition amp is indeed the culprit. Pretty sure I've got a couple of them floating around here as I'm about 85% certain that Saab used the same part on the 900.

Didn't know they had a gearbox in sump setup, all the more reason to be absolutely on the ball with oil change intervals then!

Just waiting on confirmation of the dates and anything we need to work around for collection, then will pretty much just be saying to the transport agent (who's a regular on one of the other forums I'm on so can be trusted to just get on with things) "Just let me know when you're on the way..."

I've absolutely no idea what the long term plan will be...but at the very least it will be an interesting diversion for the remainder of lockdown!

Sadly being an RE I think the instrumentation will be limited to a speedometer, fuel gauge and some warning lights. I'd dearly like to add a temperature gauge to that, though the odds of finding bits like that for such an early one are pretty slim. At least I have driven a couple of early CXs and a GSA so the whole logic to the controls isn't something that's totally alien to me. While the non self-cancelling indicators seem to drive a lot of people mad, I personally prefer it that way! Not sure if it's because I've spent a lot of time driving Ladas without that feature, or just the way my brain works. It's something I invariably seem to end up arguing with on many cars though - the Jag in particular I usually have to turn the indicators back on about five times on the way around some of the big spiral roundabouts here if turning right.

Unless things come unravelled over the next week or so, it definitely looks like it will be arriving on my driveway though.

-- -- --

This afternoon it was far, far too cold for anyone with even the slightest shred of common sense to be outside. So of course I was crawling around on the floor in the garage feeding wiring through the car for the temperature gauge in the Invacar.

Fed it all through the car from the gauge end to ensure I had it looped through all the holes and such it needed to go through and to make sure I had enough slack to work with, then hooked up the engine end and started backwards fastening the wiring properly in place working back towards the gauge. The connections to the sender here have been done using those crimp connectors which also have heat-shrink tubing pre-fitted so hopefully should be reasonably weatherproof.

Routed it along the HT leads then jumped to the main loom that runs under the battery tray.

Image

I really need to get around to fabricating a proper battery bracket (the original form factor of battery is now nearly impossible to get hold of unless you want to pay many hundreds of pounds for one) so I can dispense with the bungee cords. It's absolutely going nowhere, but it looks an awful mess.

I then continued to follow the main front-rear vehicle loom where it vanishes down under the floor.

Image

It is cable tied to the loom where it passes through grommets in the chassis braces under the floor, before popping back up following the handbrake cable and fuel lines as appropriate before rejoining the loom in this corner. I'd have preferred to follow the main loom all the way up there but that would have required removal of the fuel tank to get to...so we took the long way around.

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The gauge wiring enters the cabin through the convenient huge wiring grommet just to the left of the handbrake cable.

Image

The pre-existing red wire there is the feed to the fuel pump. I'll be labelling these with cable flags to avoid future confusion...Though the wiring on this thing isn't exactly complex.

Then I spent about half an hour standing on my head finding a clean and tidy way to route it over behind the dash and hooking it up at the gauge end. Once the engine was fired up we almost immediately confirmed the gauge was working - this photo was taken literally about 30 seconds after the engine started.

Image

If ever you needed a demonstration of how much less thermal mass you have to play with on an air cooled engine, there you go.

After running at a fast idle for about 25 minutes while I put things back together and tidied up the gauge had settled here.

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Quite curious to see how it behaves under normal driving conditions...As I've said the actual numbers I'm not particularly worried about really unless they're massively out of the correct ball park, I just want to draw up a picture in my head of what's normal for this car, and it's if we suddenly see a departure from that I know I need to investigate something. It will be interesting to see how scary the numbers I see during sustained high speed driving are though, given that's really not what this car was designed for! Between the size of the oil cooler and the fan though I don't think we should have too much trouble really.

After being on the charger overnight the Jag decided that it would actually start today so I was finally able to rearrange the fleet to all be pointing the same direction. The van being the wrong way around was something I'd been meaning to fix for ages.

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Please ignore the Audi in the background...That's nothing to do with me! Especially in grey...Nearly as unfashionable a colour as what I've got on the way...

Annoyingly the interior of the Jag is absolutely soaking wet again.

Image

I think I have sorted most of the major sources of water ingress, though there are still some minor ones. Not least the doors - the weather sheet in both of them is wrecked. I've recently got some thick polythene sheet in stock which should be perfect to make replacements out of. Hopefully that will stop most of this problem. I'm currently waiting on the arrival of a new fan for my dehumidifier...though with it being on a slow boat from China summer will probably get here first. At least I had the sense to take the carpets out when I first saw it was getting damp again though so they're not in there to just act as giant sponges like last time.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 73 AC Model 70, 62 Rover 110.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Well, Jaguars love the water and are excellent swimmers, so maybe yours is trying to recreate the Amazon rainforest!

James
ex BX 1.9
ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
ex C5 2.2HDi VTX+

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by mickthemaverick »

Excellent work there Zel though I do have one slight concern. Tied to the HT leads, your guage sensor wire will be subject to induction as the HT pulses generate rapid build and decay of current. The higher the revs the more rapid changes which will alter the inductive interference and possibly affect the readings. It may be a constant effect but I would be aware that increased revs will increase the effect to either boost or subdue the guage reading. I'd suggest routing it away from the HT altogether! :)
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I agree with Mick there. I have had a couple of occasions where EPoS equipment has had random failures, and it turned out that all of the cables were bundled together, causing induced interference. Once the cabling was tidied up the failures stopped.
James
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ex Xantia 2.0HDi SX
ex Xantia 2.0HDi LX
ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
ex C5 2.0HDi VTR
ex C5 2.2HDi VTX+

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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by Zelandeth »

I can't really route it too far away from the HT side of things given that the sensor is bolted around the end of the spark plug...It's a valid point though and I'll definitely keep an eye on it.

I did make a point of ensuring it was only running parallel to the lead rather than wrapping around it to form what would essentially be a current transformer. In theory as the signal + and ground lines are running parallel along that section and induced voltage on the lines should cancel out...in theory. If there was just a signal line on its own I'd be more worried about it causing issues.

It shouldn't be too difficult to do a bit of shuffling around, run it along the oil pressure switch line instead if needed - tethering it to the HT lead just seemed logical at the time given where it's going.

Long term there will be a point where I pull the tinware off the engine properly, when that happens I'll probably reroute it so that the line is inside the cooling shroud - but thanks to how that lot is attached to the engine, it's an engine out job to remove the shroud.
Current fleet:
07 Volvo V70 SE D5, 85 Sinclair C5, 84 Trabant 601S, 73 AC Model 70, 62 Rover 110.
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Re: Zel's Fleet Blog - Xantia Activa, Jag XJ-S, Sinclair C5, Mercedes 208D, AC Model 70.

Post by CitroJim »

Great stuff Zel, another most excellent read :D
Zelandeth wrote: 12 Feb 2021, 22:12 This afternoon it was far, far too cold for anyone with even the slightest shred of common sense to be outside.
Tell me about it! I was out working away on Robyn's C1 and the wind was cutting like a cold knife! It was bitter and despite being well layered up it took me a while to warm up again... At least you were in a garage!
Jim

A bit of a Citroen AX fan...