Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

[Mandrake]

Simon, why is it all so rusty around there?

I live in Scotland and do over 1000 miles a month come rain or shine...

Those are new pads and discs fitted back in January...

On the anti-squeal shims, having two placed together is normal for some cars - our RAV4 has just this arrangement. Some of these shims are now coming 'ready-coated' with a teflon-like layer, and some pad sets are also rear-side coated with a heavy, sound-coupling layer.
Where they don't have a special layer of any kind, and are just plain metal, I think is important that both sides of the shims are smeared with copper grease, to provide positive acoustic coupling (and some anti-rattle at the same time).

These shims have a layer of black rubbery (?) material as shown in the photo that presses against the back of the pads. I assume this is to damp squeal vibrations, although I didn't have any problems with squeal before, only the caliper yoke rattling on it's mounting pins. I added the noise reducing shims basically as "belt and suspenders" even though I thought the new pins would fix the rattle. As I said - I don't care precisely what the cure is as long as it shuts up!

[Mandrake]

Glad you've finally got to the bottom of this problem and are now up and about enjoying driving again

The constant rattling was really irritating me, especially with the high mileage I do. The front of the car is silent now over normal surfaces and moderate bumps. It only really gives a slight rattle now if you fall into deep recessed manhole size depressions.. but what car doesn't ?

The puncture theory is a good one and in your case the fact you've got a wider rear must increase your chance of hitting debris as well - I also think the camber plays a part as all the debris is washed / pinged towards the kerb.

Good point - the screw was right at the edge of the tread of the wider rear tyre - the front tyre could have easily missed it as it's only 145 vs 175 at the rear. But thinking back to my Xantia's I think all of my Xantia punctures have been rear tyres too, don't think I've ever had a front puncture in a Xantia, and the one puncture that I remember clearly back in NZ was also the left rear tyre...

[Mandrake]

Whoops - looks like I need a new 12v battery for the Ion! I've been suspicious about it for a little while now.

It has never really given me any trouble - never failed to start the car except one time about a year ago when I accidentally left the key in ACC running both heated seat covers (6 amps combined) for a good 4-5 hours or so - enough to run it down pretty low. The car was unable to "start" after that, (with nice blinky lights on the dashboard) nor was I able to charge the car when I plugged it in. (There needs to be enough charge in the 12v battery to run the ECU's to be able to initiate a charge of the traction battery)

So out came the 12v Lidl battery charger normally reserved for the Xantia - as soon as I connected the charger and turned it on I was able to "start" the car, as soon as it's started the DC-DC converter kicks in and starts charging the 12v battery from the high voltage traction battery. Likewise as soon as you initiate a traction battery charging session by plugging the car in, it will start charging the 12v battery as well.

So all I did was put the 12v charger on for a moment, plug the car into the wall to charge normally then remove the 12v charger. It literally only needs a "jump start" from a charger or another 12v battery to get it back in action and then as long as the car remains charging plugged into the wall or turned on it will finish charging the 12v battery without need of a separate 12v charger. No problems after that.

Fast forward to more recently - I often have to wait in the car for SWMBO for example when picking her up after work and in winter it's been my habit to leave my heated seat cover turned on while I wait with the radio on and key in ACC.

Should be OK in theory - 3 amps from a 30 Ah battery for at most 20 minutes or so, and as soon as the car is turned on to drive it charges the 12v battery back up again. But lately its seemed to struggle. In fact one time I was listening to the radio as well and after about 20 minute the radio went distorted, faded out and went off completely, as did my dash cam. Whoops!! I realised then the battery was not in good shape.

A few days ago I did a couple of tests - it turns out that the fully charged 12v battery can only run the 3 amp heated seat cover for about 8 minutes with the car in ACC. It stays above 11.6 volts for about 8 minutes then suddenly starts plummeting and within a minute or so it is down to 10 volts and falling rapidly at which point I turned the seat heater off. By my reckoning that's a usable Ah capacity of well under 1Ah, so basically the battery is completely stuffed considering it should be 30Ah or so.

I've checked the charging voltage and it's fine - on a flat battery it brings it up immediately to 14.5v and eventually it falls to about 14.2v - all perfectly normal charging voltage, and the battery is kept topped up constantly both while driving the car and while charging it from the wall, so it gets plenty of time to be kept charged.

What's interesting is that despite the battery being so sick that it can't even run a heated seat cover for 8 minutes, the car - if I don't try to run the seat cover in ACC, is still functioning fine, with the only real symptoms being the headlights and windscreen wipers being a bit lethargic if the car is only in ACC. As there is no starter motor there is very little drain required to "start" the car. The ECU's seem to work right down to about 9 volts so anything above 9 volts is enough to start it and then the battery immediately starts being charged and all the 12v systems have enough power.

So, definitely time for a new 12v battery - there is some suggestion from those that know that an AGM or deep cycle battery is more suitable for the workload in an EV since there's no heavy starter draw, but that it would be useful to have a battery that is not so easily damaged by deep discharges as a conventional starter battery, where only 3-4 deep discharges are enough to kill them. (I've caused one deep discharge in the time I've owned the car, previous owners have probably caused some as well)

[Mandrake]

Found a great article on the 12v battery in these cars. Looks like its a bit of an oddball size, and space wise there isn't a lot of room to fit it:

https://www.gogreenautos.co.uk/how-tos/ ... ry-battery

Edit: Ended up just ordering the 40Ah Yuasa one mentioned which should be a perfect fit:

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/yuasa/ybx5054/

Although it hasn't let me down yet as the car places such little demand on the 12v battery, I'm still concerned about driving around in the winter with a battery that is basically completely stuffed (less than 1Ah of usable capacity left - would be completely unable to crank an ICE starter motor) so thought it was prudent to just get on with it and replace it, even with just a conventional battery! Maybe I'll research an AGM another time, but it may be difficult finding one in the correct size with the correct terminals, also the constant 14.4v charging voltage is a little on the high side for an AGM - once charged they prefer a lower float voltage than a flooded battery.

I do like to use the accessories like radio and heated seat cover when the car is off for up to about 20 minutes at a time, and that needs a healthy 12v battery to do so.

[MikeT]

Wouldn't a marine/solar deep-cycle battery be a better choice, if you insist on lead-acid, Simon?
How long did the original last?

[Mandrake]

Wouldn't a marine/solar deep-cycle battery be a better choice, if you insist on lead-acid, Simon?

Yes a deep cycle battery would be a better choice in theory, but getting one in the right size with the right terminals, in a reasonable amount of time and for a reasonable price might be challenging.

I did do a quick search but in the end the battery is so sick I thought it best to just get it replaced ASAP with one that is a close match for the original OEM type and which I know for sure will fit thanks to that article.

How long did the original last?

I've had the car since March 2017 but I have no idea if it's ever been replaced as I don't have any service book for the car.

The one in the car now is the original factory fit model, and given how sick it is now and how little the car demands of it it's plausible that it could be the original 7 year old factory fitted battery:

[white exec]

Yuasa make some good batteries, with long life too - usually 5yrs+ I find.
Will be interesting to see how it fares in the unusual situation in the Ion.
That was a useful site you found. How much was the little jobbie in the end?

[MikeT]

Yes a deep cycle battery would be a better choice in theory, but getting one in the right size with the right terminals, in a reasonable amount of time and for a reasonable price might be challenging.

I did do a quick search but in the end the battery is so sick I thought it best to just get it replaced ASAP with one that is a close match for the original OEM type and which I know for sure will fit thanks to that article.

I've had the car since March 2017 but I have no idea if it's ever been replaced as I don't have any service book for the car.

The one in the car now is the original factory fit model, and given how sick it is now and how little the car demands of it it's plausible that it could be the original 7 year old factory fitted battery:

It seems bizarre to specifiy a cranking battery for non-cranking use.
Then again until today, I never thought an electric car would need a seperate system battery.

[Zelandeth]

I assume the electrolyte level in the original one is correct? Given the fact it's going to have spent most of it's life fully charged but with the float charge voltage applied a fair amount could have boiled off over time.

I've seen some apparently well stuffed batteries revived by the recovery cycle some of the more advanced chargers these days have, even if the process can sometimes take a couple of days.

[Mandrake]

That was a useful site you found. How much was the little jobbie in the end?

It was £57 including shipping and VAT.

I have no idea whether that's expensive or not - I've only bought one other 12v battery in the last 10 years for a Xantia and I seem to recall that was over £60, albeit a bigger battery.

Yes a deep cycle battery would be a better choice in theory, but getting one in the right size with the right terminals, in a reasonable amount of time and for a reasonable price might be challenging.

I did do a quick search but in the end the battery is so sick I thought it best to just get it replaced ASAP with one that is a close match for the original OEM type and which I know for sure will fit thanks to that article.

I've had the car since March 2017 but I have no idea if it's ever been replaced as I don't have any service book for the car.

The one in the car now is the original factory fit model, and given how sick it is now and how little the car demands of it it's plausible that it could be the original 7 year old factory fitted battery:

It seems bizarre to specifiy a cranking battery for non-cranking use.

Some EV's do come with deep cycle 12v batteries from the factory, but not this one.

Then again until today, I never thought an electric car would need a seperate system battery.

Well now you know. On all EV's the ECU's and low voltage stuff like headlights, power steering, blower fan, radiator fan, coolant pumps, central locking etc run from 12 volts using a traditional lead acid battery. (Or on some EV's deep cycle or AGM, but still a lead based battery) The only things that run directly from the high voltage traction battery are the main drive motors, heater and air conditioner pump, typically.

When the car is fully "on" the 12v battery is constantly bolstered by a DC-DC converter outputting 14.4v supplied by the high voltage battery, and on this car I think that is capable of about 80 amps. So while the electric power steering is a heavy load the power steering is only ever active when the DC-DC converter is running, so the 12v battery is not really having to supply the steering - it's just acting as a ballast. So despite the battery being very sick everything including steering works normally when the car is on.

So as long the 12v battery has enough oomph to supply the ECU's and the contactors that engage the main traction battery when you first turn the car on, everything will continue to work. Which is why the battery has got into such a sorry state without me really noticing. It's only when trying to use high drain accessories like heated seat covers with the key only in accessory that the problem has been brought to my attention.

I assume the electrolyte level in the original one is correct? Given the fact it's going to have spent most of it's life fully charged but with the float charge voltage applied a fair amount could have boiled off over time.

I've seen some apparently well stuffed batteries revived by the recovery cycle some of the more advanced chargers these days have, even if the process can sometimes take a couple of days.

I haven't checked the electrolyte level to be honest, but if its the original battery it's probably long past the point of salvage as I've never seen capacity loss this bad. I do have one of these chargers which I bought for use with LiPo and NiMH batteries that can do capacity measurement and testing - it has a Lead Acid mode as well which I haven't tried before, so out of curiosity I'll be doing a post-mortem of the old battery to see what it's exact capacity is and whether I can revive it with an intelligent charger and/or topping up the water. My guess is I won't be able to make much improvement though.

[white exec]

Not a bad price at all. We pay about just under €90 here for a full-size Yuasa 3096.

Was interesting to see that the (maybe original) battery was utterly traditional, including top-up caps! You're probably right, Simon, in that it doesn't do much in the way of hard work during its life. Maybe it also doesn't get exposed to the kind of under-bonnet high temperatures that most ICE car batteries do, which will help. Also wonder whether the DC-DC converter for the battery could be 'intelligent' rather than a simple fixed-voltage/alternator-regulator job?

[Mandrake]

Was interesting to see that the (maybe original) battery was utterly traditional, including top-up caps! You're probably right, Simon, in that it doesn't do much in the way of hard work during its life. Maybe it also doesn't get exposed to the kind of under-bonnet high temperatures that most car batteries do, which will help.

No high temperatures under the bonnet as very little in the way of heat sources, given the motor is at the rear - not that the motor gets hot anyway. Maybe a little heat from the air conditioning condenser when A/C is running but that's about it. There is a coolant radiator for the motor and drive inverter but it doesn't seem to even get warm to the touch!

If anything the 12v battery getting too cold in winter would be more of a concern, as in -10C ambient conditions the under bonnet area would not be much warmer than this! Fortunately Lead Acid batteries can charge and discharge at very low temperatures - much lower than Lithium Ion, and although their cranking amps are reduced in freezing weather there is no cranking needed - if it can supply enough for the ECU's and contactors during a cold start (probably around 1 amp) that's all it needs to do to get things going. Even with sub zero mornings and an almost useless 12v battery that couldn't power a chocolate blancmange I've not had the slightest hint of trouble starting the car.

Also wonder whether the DC-DC converter for the battery is also 'intelligent' rather than a simple fixed-voltage job?

From what I've read this particular converter/charger is fairly "dumb" in that it has a constant output voltage, however it is temperature compensated so it varies between 14.2v and 14.6 volts depending on temperature, since the correct charging voltage for Lead Acid varies with temperature.

I monitored the voltage all the way home last night and it did not budge - it flicked between 14.4 and 14.5 all the way. I know some other EV's have "smarter" chargers that act more like intelligent chargers/conditioners that will drop the voltage back after a full charge, but funnily enough those cars (Leaf in particular) seem to have an awful lot of trouble with their 12v batteries going flat!

Lots of reports of Leaf's unexpectedly being unable to turn on due to a discharged or weak 12 volt battery and needing a new 12v battery after only a couple of years but almost no reports of C-Zero's/Ion's with the same problem. Sometimes simple is better! The constant voltage charge in the Ion is a lot closer to the charge cycle in an ICE vehicle which is also more or less a temperature compensated constant ~14.4 volts while the motor is running.

Nobody is quite sure why the Leaf has so many problems with its 12v battery going flat and losing capacity but there is some suggestion that it chronically undercharges the battery (never really giving it a proper saturation charge, and using too low a float voltage of only about 13.6 volts) eventually leading to sulfation of the plates.

I think my 12v battery is just very old, and has probably suffered from a few deep discharges when the vehicle has been left to sit unused for weeks at a time as the mileage of the car was very low for its age. For example the guy who sold it to me had left it unused for over 3 weeks when I went to test drive it and the battery was very low then - only just enough to start it, that can't have been good for the battery. I then accidentally did a deep discharge on it once as well, so that's two. It only takes about 4 deep discharges of a starter battery to cripple their capacity.

[white exec]

Reassuring.

There's a lot to be said for keeping lead-acid batteries away from a hot engine compartment, to combat evaporation. If I think back to cars I've had with boot-mounted batteries (Rover P5, P6, Mini), these soldiered on for years - 10+ in several cases. On the downside, the bean-counters had to cope with a very long run of heavy-duty cable from boot to starter motor .

Our 1935 Rover Ten took the prize for chilly-location battery, though. The rear seat cushion could be taken out, and a full-width steel panel (with a couple of swivel-catches) lifted out to give unrestricted access to back axle, springs, shock absorbers and battery, which sat in a chassis-mounted tray just ahead of the beam axle/diff, and completely open to the elements. My father worked for Crompton-Parkinson, and so car batteries could be had with a massive staff discount. The 'Golden Crompton' he brought home one day went into the Rover, and stayed there for at least 12 years, until we sold her. Crompton batteries were rather good; they were de rigeur for milk floats.

[Gibbo2286]

Minis had the battery behind the passenger seat but they made the mistake of running the cable under the floor, careless mechanics with trolley jacks jacked under the cable, shorted it out and killed the batteries.

[white exec]

Ouch! That was Mini vans with the battery behind the seat, I think.