Mannol Coolant Antifreeze - possible fake counterfeit

[kantica]

Most of the solutions are made by one company: BASF.
G12+ designation is used by VW and equivalent BASF one would be G30.
Citroen recommends G33 which is specialy made G30 solution for PSA.

https://www.glysantin.de/en/glysantinr-g30r-concentrate

[aspire_helen]

It must also be remembered that there is a difference between air frost and ground frost. For instance, if the weather forecast reports ambient air temperature of -5 say, parts of the metal engine, eg fine radiator tubing, could easily be several degrees colder.
My research agrees with ozvtr. 1to1 EG/water equates to circa -35degsC. 1to2 EG/water equates to circa -17degsC (Eg Halfords own, Tradepoint in my list above). The problem is - whatever the concentration manufacturers appear to be able to call it "ready to use" or "ready mixed". Mannol-uk argue with me that -8degsC is "ready to use" -somewhere in the world!! Also, diluting the mix also dilutes the anti-corrosion properties.

[aspire_helen]

Adding to Kantica
The designations (eg G) and colours (red, blue, pink, green etc) are NOT standardised and are largely meaningless. In other words, if your car has pink antifreeze, do not assume that another brand's pink is the same!

[ozvtr]

Most of the solutions are made by one company: BASF.
G12+ designation is used by VW and equivalent BASF one would be G30.
Citroen recommends G33 which is specialy made G30 solution for PSA.

https://www.glysantin.de/en/glysantinr-g30r-concentrate

There is no patent on Ethylene Glycol or Poly Ethylene Glycol. There are patents on some different processes of making them, however. So there are a number of companies around the world who make it. Including BASF and Union Carbide. Is it possible that the chemicals in the antifreeze in you car came from BASF (irrespective of the brand on the bottle)...yes. But there is no proof either way. It's not in company 'A's best interest to tell you that their product is exactly the same as company 'B's , while charging you a higher price!
Citroen no longer "recommends" Glystantin. While BASF recommends Glystantin in Citroen vehicles, Citroen doesn't! Citroen only recommends their own product with their own part number, containing whatever made by whoever. If I recall correctly it's currently "made" in Portugal, whatever that means. Is it trucked in bulk from BASF's plant in Germany and decanted in Portugal...don't know.
Again while that's not proof that it's NOT made by BASF, it's also NOT proof that it IS made by BASF!

Antifreeze concentrate is basically made up of 2 things. Ethylene glycol (or Poly Ethylene Glycol) and a corrosion inhibitor. ALL ANTIFREEZE CONCENTRATES ARE THE SAME, 95% GLYCOL! That last 5% is the corrosion inhibitor package. A "modern" corrosion inhibitor package is based around an "Organic Acid Technology" (or OAT) corrosion inhibitor. There are a number of OAT compounds used as corrosion inhibitors and manufacturers have a choice as to which ones they decide to use. Now, EXACTLY what "OAT" they use and what else they put into the corrosion inhibitor package...is up to them! It's their "secret sauce" that allows them to charge a premium price for their product!! On 5% of the volume? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!
If PSA engines require a "special blend" of anti freeze...what do you put into the current crop of Peugeot/Citroen vehicles who's engines are made by BMW???!!!! Hmm, BMW isn't part of Stilantis. Nope, it's a scam!
The only thing I have found that is not a scam is the type of corrosion inhibitors. Use OAT inhibitors in "modern" all-Aluminium cooling systems and non OAT inhibitors for "older" engines that use iron blocks and copper radiators. Using them around the wrong way may cause (long term) damage to some cooling system components.

Look, it's your money and I WILL NOT tell you how to spend it. You are free to buy what ever you want. But you should at least know what's in it and why you should or shouldn't be using it! Then YOU make the decision. Instead of all this "Flim-Flamery" and "Hocus-pokas"!

[ozvtr]

To go in the opposite direction of aspire_helen, I live in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. Under EXTREME circumstances it might get into the single digits on the thermometer, FOR A FEW MINUTES A DAY in winter. Average winter day, maybe 17'C (but a winter day can get up to 36'C. I'm serious ,look it up). Average summer day is maybe 30'C. Ethylene glycol has the heat carrying capacity (cooling potential) only 85% that of water. So why the heck would I put "antifreeze" in my cooling system??!! When it will actually cause my cooling system to perform less than optimally. And yet I can go to my local auto store and find literally a wall of coolants based on glycol! Why? Because most people have no idea, and companies want to make money! True, on a super rare occasion, someone from my area might go "down south" where freezing temperatures might be encountered. Ok, "better to be safe than sorry", but again most people have no idea and still have the coolant that was in it when they bought the car. So what would they care?
I care!
Would running glycol in my coolant cause the engine to overheat? All by itself, with no underlying engine problems...NO. But I would be paying for something that is doing...nothing!
For a fraction of the price I can just buy 500mls of corrosion inhibitor and that will make enough to service my engine coolant...twice!

[CitroJim]

To go in the opposite direction of aspire_helen, I live in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia. Under EXTREME circumstances it might get into the single digits on the thermometer, FOR A FEW MINUTES A DAY in winter. Average winter day, maybe 17'C (but a winter day can get up to 36'C. I'm serious ,look it up). Average summer day is maybe 30'C.

I know I lived just up the road in Darwin back in the early 90s... Wish, for many reasons, I still did...

Good point well made about ethylene glycol but...

You do still need a corrosion inhibitor in your coolant Surprised, in your corner of the world, this is not properly addressed...

[myglaren]

I was previously led to understand that the combination of ethylene glycol and water increased the heat capacity of the mixture, so it was greater than water alone.
Perhaps this is not true.

Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 1:1 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 3140 J/(kg·°C) (0.75 BTU/(lb·°F)), three quarters that of pure water, thus requiring increased flow rates in same-system comparisons with water.

(source: Wikipedia)

It does appear that my information was incorrect.

[MattBLancs]

I was previously led to understand that the combination of ethylene glycol and water increased the heat capacity of the mixture, so it was greater than water alone.
Perhaps this is not true.

Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 1:1 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 3140 J/(kg·°C) (0.75 BTU/(lb·°F)), three quarters that of pure water, thus requiring increased flow rates in same-system comparisons with water.

(source: Wikipedia)

It does appear that my information was incorrect.

Yes, it seems to be a fairly common misconception: reality is boiling point increased but specific heat capacity reduced by adding antifreeze.

I do think in most applications, the reduction in specific heat capacity shouldn't really have any meaningful protection (unless you top up to give protection down to -35°C and then head off towing your trailer across Death Valley, should not really reaching the limitations of the cooling system

[citroenguy]

I was previously led to understand that the combination of ethylene glycol and water increased the heat capacity of the mixture, so it was greater than water alone.
Perhaps this is not true.

Pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat capacity about one half that of water. So, while providing freeze protection and an increased boiling point, ethylene glycol lowers the specific heat capacity of water mixtures relative to pure water. A 1:1 mix by mass has a specific heat capacity of about 3140 J/(kg·°C) (0.75 BTU/(lb·°F)), three quarters that of pure water, thus requiring increased flow rates in same-system comparisons with water.

(source: Wikipedia)

It does appear that my information was incorrect.

Yes, it seems to be a fairly common misconception: reality is boiling point increased but specific heat capacity reduced by adding antifreeze.

I do think in most applications, the reduction in specific heat capacity shouldn't really have any meaningful protection (unless you top up to give protection down to -35°C and then head off towing your trailer across Death Valley, should not really reaching the limitations of the cooling system

Here in Sweden i usually see a freezepoint of -40 to -50 degrees centigrade on the cars i service. This is because in a large part of the country can reach below -30C in the winter.
On the other end it can reach +35C degrees in the summer, and Swedes like their caravans.. I've never seen lines of overheated cars in the summer.
I usually mix around 60% glykol and 40% water

[ozvtr]

You do still need a corrosion inhibitor in your coolant Surprised, in your corner of the world, this is not properly addressed...

For a fraction of the price I can just buy 500mls of corrosion inhibitor and that will make enough to service my engine coolant...twice!

If you buy concentrated "antifreeze", as I said, about 5% of the mixture is corrosion inhibitor. So if you mix up your own antifreeze you should be covered. Whether you live in the tropics or in the arctic. Or just buy corrosion inhibitor if you don't need antifreeze. Of course if you need antifreeze...then you need antifreeze. If you buy pre-mix what will be in it?

NO! As I said using antifreeze in a hot climate won't cause your engine to boil over! It's just not as good as water at moving heat out of your engine. So if you don't need it...why would you pay for it?

NO! You should NEVER run "just water" in your cooling system (if you can avoid it). Plain water will cause cavitation in the water pump at high speed. This can eventually eat away the impeller blades and the water pump housing. The "stand alone" corrosion inhibitor I use has anti-foaming agents to stop cavitation and wetting agents for better heat conduction. It says so on the label. What does the pre-mix label say?

NO! You should NEVER run "tap" water in your coolant, demineralized water ONLY. I wont explain why...you should know why!

My whole point goes back to the Original Poster's complaint about pre-mixed anti freeze. I'm not saying don't use antifreeze...just don't get ripped-off by buying an unsuitable product. And...know what the product you need should have in it!

If it says nothing on the label...then that's probably what it's got in it!!!

[CitroJim]

NO! You should NEVER run "just water" in your cooling system (if you can avoid it). Plain water will cause cavitation in the water pump at high speed. This can eventually eat away the impeller blades and the water pump housing. The "stand alone" corrosion inhibitor I use has anti-foaming agents to stop cavitation and wetting agents for better heat conduction. It says so on the label. What does the pre-mix label say?

NO! You should NEVER run "tap" water in your coolant, demineralized water ONLY. I wont explain why...you should know why!

I've seen the after-effects of running plain tap water in an alloy engine... Long ago I bought a 'spares or repairs' Pug 205GTi that had spent many years abandoned under a hedge...

Not only had the block cracked from being frozen solid but the levels of internal corrosion were epic. The head was a complete writeoff with deep pockmarks like potholes in the water passages as was everywhere else that was in direct contact with the coolant. Corrosion at the bottoms of the cylinder liners had caused them to drop and also made them impossible to remove from the block - which was a shame as the liners, crank and pistons had loads of life left in them. As did the cam... The crank, pistons and cam did indeed go on to be used to rebuild another engine.

I'd never seen anything like it before or since..

The engine was beyond saving. If only proper coolant had been used...

The car, with a replacement engine, went on to lead a happy second life. One of only three cars I ever regretted selling...

[earlsgate]

presumably the OP is exercising their Ebay guarantee rights, who will intervene where necessary, and obtaining a full refund all return shipping arrangements as this is the best way of putting pressure on these companies?

personally i will be shopping for engine oils elsewhere from now on as I too was given the mild winter excuse on a customer service enquiry

[aspire_helen]

Result.
I emailed MannolUK the following:
"I require a response from a senior manager at Mannol uk, by 10 Februaury, or I assume Mannol are content to have their -8degsC antifreeze widely and truthfully discredited on social media, review sites and the motor trade.
For the record, I attach last night's forecast for a minimum of -5degsC near Hereford. Do you still want to remain on record that your antifreeze with a freezing point of only -8degs is appropriate for the UK?"
I received the following response:
"I will pass all the information you have provided to our manufacture and Technical specials for investigation and their reply. We have contacted the seller and refund been issued."
So, the manufacturer (Mannol) have "persuaded" the seller to refund me, which I have received. I must clarify that I have not contacted the seller myself.
I have provided the following Ebay feedback:
"The Technical Data Sheet for this Mannol G12+ ready to use antifreeze has a design freezing point of only -8degsC and is hence unfit for purpose in the UK and should not be sold here."

[aspire_helen]

Just to add. I purposely did not go down the Ebay refund process because the product is not defective or mis-described per se etc. From previous experience, when a seller sent the wrong product I did not get a postage refund! Of course, Ebay use AI to decided disputes and I am unsure whether "fit for purpose" would lead to a refund of 20kg postage! The bottom line has to be that this product should not be available for sale in the UK, nor most of the EU.

[aspire_helen]

Me again. I recall in the 1980s, when in the RAF, Armed Forces serving in Germany (British Army on the Rhine etc) could get tax-free gin and vodka. It was so cheap they used it as antifreeze in their cars (also tax free)!
I am off to the dump now to safely dispose of this useless Mannol anti-freeze.