405 SRDT injecion pump leak
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 54888
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- x 8254
Hi Ron,
How loud is this clicking noise? It really shouldn't be there. Turning the pump over by hand you should feel four strong compressions in a complete revolution but no real noises. Is it one click per revolution or many?
How far did you strip the pump?
Back at the distributor head, when you reassembled, did you ensure the hp pumping element (the bit in the photos with the red and green lines on it) was correctly located on it's pin drive on the swashplate and the shim was correctly located underneath it? By the way, don't worry about what the other site says, as long as it's correctly engaged with it's drive pin, all will be fine. If the shim is not in place, and it can drop out of place easily, then the HP pumping element can float around. If it;s riding on top of the drive pin it can catch the back of it's bore and cause a click.
Other clicks can be caused by the governor weights and another can be if you don't have the delivery sleeve (the round slide that fist over the hp pumping element) engaged properly with the throttle plate - again it is very easy for this to fall out of place during reassembly if you are not very cautious. I reassemble the distributor head with the pump body held so that the distributor head is placed on to of the body as it were... Hard to describe but that way, everything holds together better and it's easier to reassemble and not have bits falling out of alignment as you reassemble.
I tend to reassemble the distributor head first before replacing the top of the pump. That way you can check all those bits are OK and that the delivery sleeve is correctly located to the throttle plate.
Another cause of the click may be the throttle spring assembly as not correctly engaged with the throttle plate - it is quite finniky to get the slot in the end of the throttle spring rod to slip into the slot on top of the throttle plate.
I'd check and check again that all is good and that there are no clicks on spinning it by hand before trying to run it.
On the cold idle, Andy is right, in warm climates, even in the UK, the waxstat is really only ornamental. The cold idle lever resting position is normal idle and when the engine is really cold the waxstat cable will pull it over to the fast idle position. As the waxstat warms and expands it extends the cable so on a hot engine there should be just a tad of slack in the cable and it should pull tight as the engine cools. That's if it works and they never did for very long!!!
Hope that helps Ron, keep coming back with questions but now I'm off to bed!!! I'm an early riser so will be watching in the morning for news!
How loud is this clicking noise? It really shouldn't be there. Turning the pump over by hand you should feel four strong compressions in a complete revolution but no real noises. Is it one click per revolution or many?
How far did you strip the pump?
Back at the distributor head, when you reassembled, did you ensure the hp pumping element (the bit in the photos with the red and green lines on it) was correctly located on it's pin drive on the swashplate and the shim was correctly located underneath it? By the way, don't worry about what the other site says, as long as it's correctly engaged with it's drive pin, all will be fine. If the shim is not in place, and it can drop out of place easily, then the HP pumping element can float around. If it;s riding on top of the drive pin it can catch the back of it's bore and cause a click.
Other clicks can be caused by the governor weights and another can be if you don't have the delivery sleeve (the round slide that fist over the hp pumping element) engaged properly with the throttle plate - again it is very easy for this to fall out of place during reassembly if you are not very cautious. I reassemble the distributor head with the pump body held so that the distributor head is placed on to of the body as it were... Hard to describe but that way, everything holds together better and it's easier to reassemble and not have bits falling out of alignment as you reassemble.
I tend to reassemble the distributor head first before replacing the top of the pump. That way you can check all those bits are OK and that the delivery sleeve is correctly located to the throttle plate.
Another cause of the click may be the throttle spring assembly as not correctly engaged with the throttle plate - it is quite finniky to get the slot in the end of the throttle spring rod to slip into the slot on top of the throttle plate.
I'd check and check again that all is good and that there are no clicks on spinning it by hand before trying to run it.
On the cold idle, Andy is right, in warm climates, even in the UK, the waxstat is really only ornamental. The cold idle lever resting position is normal idle and when the engine is really cold the waxstat cable will pull it over to the fast idle position. As the waxstat warms and expands it extends the cable so on a hot engine there should be just a tad of slack in the cable and it should pull tight as the engine cools. That's if it works and they never did for very long!!!
Hope that helps Ron, keep coming back with questions but now I'm off to bed!!! I'm an early riser so will be watching in the morning for news!
Jim
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
-
patanga
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 02:02
Hi Jim
Regards the extent of my dismantle, I removed the top throttle body housing and carefully followed your site instructions. I am 99.9% certain that the throttle spring rod was correctly positioned into the slot on the throttle plate. I agree that was a bit on the finiky side.
Re the distribution housing, I did the strip down on that following your site info but I did remove the distribution rod and springs because I wanted to make sure that the shim hadn't dropped out of place. Again, I am 99.9% sure that it all went back together correctly.
I need to go out for a few hours for now but I will take the cam belt off when I get back and rotate the pump the check on the number of clicks. I think it's only one per revolution. I will confirm that for you when I get back this evening (my time). That was the extent of it. I also made sure that the pump was always vertical when the distribution manifold was off to make certain that nothing could fall out of place internally.
Will get back to youy asap.
Cheers
Ron
Regards the extent of my dismantle, I removed the top throttle body housing and carefully followed your site instructions. I am 99.9% certain that the throttle spring rod was correctly positioned into the slot on the throttle plate. I agree that was a bit on the finiky side.
Re the distribution housing, I did the strip down on that following your site info but I did remove the distribution rod and springs because I wanted to make sure that the shim hadn't dropped out of place. Again, I am 99.9% sure that it all went back together correctly.
I need to go out for a few hours for now but I will take the cam belt off when I get back and rotate the pump the check on the number of clicks. I think it's only one per revolution. I will confirm that for you when I get back this evening (my time). That was the extent of it. I also made sure that the pump was always vertical when the distribution manifold was off to make certain that nothing could fall out of place internally.
Will get back to youy asap.
Cheers
Ron
Last edited by patanga on 01 Mar 2011, 22:10, edited 2 times in total.
-
patanga
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 02:02
Hi Jim
I've removed the timing belt and when the pump is rotated it sounds to be clicking at the top of each compression cycle. (one click with each stroke) If I had to say the noise was coming from an area of the pump it seems to be at the sprocket end of things. As I rotate the sprocket it is visibly moving (maybe 1mm) closer towards the pump. The click occurs just as the stroke runs over TDC. Does that help any?
The only thing that might have caused any problems was when one of the locator pins holding the larger springs at the distributor head end didn't seat properly. There was a witness mark on the distributor head at the edge of the locator hole where the pin hadn't seated properly. The pin was a little tight after that so I took the head to my local engineering shop to have it reemed a little. After that I took it to a diesel repairer for a second opinion and they seemed to think it would be ok. Nothing felt out of the ordinary when I tightened the distributor head down the first time either. My fingers crossed that it's nothing serious.
Adding to the above; I've just removed the pump and rotated the sprocket with it on the bench and now there is no noise. That doesn't help any now does it?.. It's too dark for me to see out now but I can't see how anything external to the pump could have been the cause of four separate clicks at the top of each compression stroke?..
Regards your earlier questions about the volume of the noise; it was quite clearly audible. A bit like a pen clicking. Now that the pump is off again I'll get some clean clear tubing in the morning and try priming the pump on the bench to see if diesel will pump out of the injector pipe outlets. Re the pin drive on the swashplate and the shim etc, I made doubly sure that the both lower and upper pins were located into the discs on the plunger shaft and also that the shim was correctly in place.
Sorry I wont be able to let you know about the pumping ability of the pump until tomorrow but I don't trust that the tubing that I have available is clean enough not to contaminate the pump.
I'm off to bed for now though.. Perhaps you might comment on the assumption that it pumps ok on the bench in the morning and witout any noises that maybe I should put it on the car and give it a try?
I've removed the timing belt and when the pump is rotated it sounds to be clicking at the top of each compression cycle. (one click with each stroke) If I had to say the noise was coming from an area of the pump it seems to be at the sprocket end of things. As I rotate the sprocket it is visibly moving (maybe 1mm) closer towards the pump. The click occurs just as the stroke runs over TDC. Does that help any?
The only thing that might have caused any problems was when one of the locator pins holding the larger springs at the distributor head end didn't seat properly. There was a witness mark on the distributor head at the edge of the locator hole where the pin hadn't seated properly. The pin was a little tight after that so I took the head to my local engineering shop to have it reemed a little. After that I took it to a diesel repairer for a second opinion and they seemed to think it would be ok. Nothing felt out of the ordinary when I tightened the distributor head down the first time either. My fingers crossed that it's nothing serious.
Adding to the above; I've just removed the pump and rotated the sprocket with it on the bench and now there is no noise. That doesn't help any now does it?.. It's too dark for me to see out now but I can't see how anything external to the pump could have been the cause of four separate clicks at the top of each compression stroke?..
Regards your earlier questions about the volume of the noise; it was quite clearly audible. A bit like a pen clicking. Now that the pump is off again I'll get some clean clear tubing in the morning and try priming the pump on the bench to see if diesel will pump out of the injector pipe outlets. Re the pin drive on the swashplate and the shim etc, I made doubly sure that the both lower and upper pins were located into the discs on the plunger shaft and also that the shim was correctly in place.
Sorry I wont be able to let you know about the pumping ability of the pump until tomorrow but I don't trust that the tubing that I have available is clean enough not to contaminate the pump.
I'm off to bed for now though.. Perhaps you might comment on the assumption that it pumps ok on the bench in the morning and witout any noises that maybe I should put it on the car and give it a try?
Last edited by patanga on 26 Feb 2011, 21:13, edited 1 time in total.
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 54888
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- x 8254
Ron, there is definitely a problem if the sprocket is discernibly moving as it is turned over. I've been out in my workshop and checked a pump and there should be absolutely no lateral movement on the sprocket at all as it is rotated. If there was, the cam belt would have trouble coping with it.
I think you can clear the distributor head from the list of suspects now and must look further into the pump. Toward the lift-pump end.
When you removed the distributor head and HP pumping element, did you remove the swashplate, the rollers and the spring underneath it?
Did you disturb the driveshaft at all? The reason I ask is that there is a small woodruff key on the driveshaft that keys the lift-pump rotor and the governor drive gear to the shaft and it is enormously easy for this woodruff key to dislodge and drop into the lift-pump between the impeller vanes. Also, drive to the governor would stop and a weight may be out of place and catching.
I think there is no option but to completely strip and rebuild the pump. Certainly the lateral movement problem must be resolved.
I think you can clear the distributor head from the list of suspects now and must look further into the pump. Toward the lift-pump end.
When you removed the distributor head and HP pumping element, did you remove the swashplate, the rollers and the spring underneath it?
Did you disturb the driveshaft at all? The reason I ask is that there is a small woodruff key on the driveshaft that keys the lift-pump rotor and the governor drive gear to the shaft and it is enormously easy for this woodruff key to dislodge and drop into the lift-pump between the impeller vanes. Also, drive to the governor would stop and a weight may be out of place and catching.
I think there is no option but to completely strip and rebuild the pump. Certainly the lateral movement problem must be resolved.
Jim
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
-
patanga
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 02:02
Hi Jim.
Other than to lift the shim to make sure it was in place, the swash plate and everything below that point were left alone. I also made sure that once the distributor body was removed that the pump never left the virtical orientaion. I will remove the distributor body again to triple check that the shim is still in place. If the pump needs to be completely dismantled could you please give me your opinion on whether the following website is worth using as a reference or if you have any other suggestion I'd be very appreciative. http://gnarlodious.com/Vanagon/Bosch_Pu ... Cheers Ron
Other than to lift the shim to make sure it was in place, the swash plate and everything below that point were left alone. I also made sure that once the distributor body was removed that the pump never left the virtical orientaion. I will remove the distributor body again to triple check that the shim is still in place. If the pump needs to be completely dismantled could you please give me your opinion on whether the following website is worth using as a reference or if you have any other suggestion I'd be very appreciative. http://gnarlodious.com/Vanagon/Bosch_Pu ... Cheers Ron
-
spider
- Posts: 3949
- Joined: 05 Jan 2010, 14:28
- x 77
I quoted your post Ron, as the misplaced location of the closing URL tag has played havoc with the parsing.
patanga wrote:Hi Jim.
Other than to lift the shim to make sure it was in place, the swash plate and everything below that point were left alone. I also made sure that once the distributor body was removed that the pump never left the virtical orientaion. I will remove the distributor body again to triple check that the shim is still in place. If the pump needs to be completely dismantled could you please give me your opinion on whether the following website is worth using as a reference or if you have any other suggestion I'd be very appreciative. http://gnarlodious.com/Vanagon/Bosch_Pu ... ld.html#84
Cheers
Ron
Andy.
91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
91 205D-Turbo, gone but still missed
02 106D, TUD5B, gone but not really missed apart from the MPG
-
patanga
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 02:02
-
patanga
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 02:02
Hi Jim.
The top throttle housing and the distributor body are now off and so far I can't see anything out of the ordinary. To my absolute surprise I did find a small moth inside the top throttle rod housing. I was very particular with cleanliness when I did the assembley but fluro lights are like magnets to bugs at night and obviously one little kamikaze found its way inside. I was in doors and even did a sweep with the bug spray but obviously it wasn't enough. Lesson learned. Day time diesel pump work only from here on.
Here are a couple of pics of where things are at present. This is as far as I took the strip down the first time around also. The only difference this time being that both the top cover and the distributor housing are off at the same time. Can you see any likely suspects, or make any suggestions re the next test procedure or direction?
The top throttle housing and the distributor body are now off and so far I can't see anything out of the ordinary. To my absolute surprise I did find a small moth inside the top throttle rod housing. I was very particular with cleanliness when I did the assembley but fluro lights are like magnets to bugs at night and obviously one little kamikaze found its way inside. I was in doors and even did a sweep with the bug spray but obviously it wasn't enough. Lesson learned. Day time diesel pump work only from here on.
Here are a couple of pics of where things are at present. This is as far as I took the strip down the first time around also. The only difference this time being that both the top cover and the distributor housing are off at the same time. Can you see any likely suspects, or make any suggestions re the next test procedure or direction?
Last edited by patanga on 27 Feb 2011, 11:08, edited 1 time in total.
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 54888
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- x 8254
It looks OK Ron as far as I can see from the pictures but the pump interior is surprisingly mucky, as if it has been standing a while and the old diesel has started to go "off". This muck can cause the lift pump vanes and roller axles to bind and this may be part of or all of the cause.
I'd now bite the bullet and strip the body fully, right down to the last component. Don't strip anything off the head though... That can stay assembled.
The pictures in this website are excellent for the job but do be aware this is for the non-turbo version of the pump; the body is however, the same.
Give everything a really good clean-up so that it sparkles. Carb cleaner is good or even petrol. You may find the rubber "cush drive" blocks in the governor drive gear have hardened and even broken.
The carefully reassemble and before replacing the head, but after replacing the distributor head, spin it over. It should spin relatively easily with no noise, no lateral shaft movement and 4 distinct but springy "compressions". To spin it over I refit the drive sprocket and but and use a 21mm spanner on the nut to spin it. On the end of a 21mm spanner very little force will be needed to turn it. When reassembling lubricate everything liberally with light machine oil or vegetable oil.
If the above is OK then refit the head and spin again. No noise or lateral shaft movement should be evident.
We'll get there Ron!
I'd now bite the bullet and strip the body fully, right down to the last component. Don't strip anything off the head though... That can stay assembled.
The pictures in this website are excellent for the job but do be aware this is for the non-turbo version of the pump; the body is however, the same.
Give everything a really good clean-up so that it sparkles. Carb cleaner is good or even petrol. You may find the rubber "cush drive" blocks in the governor drive gear have hardened and even broken.
The carefully reassemble and before replacing the head, but after replacing the distributor head, spin it over. It should spin relatively easily with no noise, no lateral shaft movement and 4 distinct but springy "compressions". To spin it over I refit the drive sprocket and but and use a 21mm spanner on the nut to spin it. On the end of a 21mm spanner very little force will be needed to turn it. When reassembling lubricate everything liberally with light machine oil or vegetable oil.
If the above is OK then refit the head and spin again. No noise or lateral shaft movement should be evident.
We'll get there Ron!
Jim
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
-
patanga
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 02:02
Hi Jim..
Thanks for your reply. I know that prior to getting the car that it had been maintained for years through a french car specialist workshop so I am wondering if maybe it had been using poor quality fuel for some time for the pump to be looking as it does inside. The car had done some 40,000km's in the last 3 years so I'm guessing that is wasn't a lack of use that caused the fuel to possibly go off.
I'm wondering if maybe the pump had been swapped out at some stage from another vehicle. I say this because the bottom tapered mounting bolt on the pump to engine mount bracket only had a standard flat seat allen head bolt in it and I presume it should either have a tapered sleeve or tapered seat bolt head to suit? Plus one of the nuts and washers didn't look O.E either. By the way, is that tapered recess a critical mounting surface to have correct or should the regular allen bolt be ok? It all sits square when mounted. Photo's attached:
Anyway strip down it is then... I've been mentally psyching myself up to this moment since yesterday:). I kind of figured that there would be little chance of a magic wand solution..
I'm glad that you approve of the VE pump rebuild website. I feel a lot better about trusting it now. I noticed that the pump in that site didn't have the turbo sensor UFO on top but I guessed it was very similar in other respects. I'll start on it first thing in the morning and keep you posted on my progress. I think these pumps are slowley beginning to make a little more sense to me now. Famous last words;)
By the way, is there anything I should or not use in the cleaning process. I've got plenty of throttle body cleaner & petrol. Is it ok to use a synthetic scotch brite pad to aggitate the tarnish build up, or just the solvent and a lint free cloth? Sleep time for now though.
Thanks Jim..
Thanks for your reply. I know that prior to getting the car that it had been maintained for years through a french car specialist workshop so I am wondering if maybe it had been using poor quality fuel for some time for the pump to be looking as it does inside. The car had done some 40,000km's in the last 3 years so I'm guessing that is wasn't a lack of use that caused the fuel to possibly go off.
I'm wondering if maybe the pump had been swapped out at some stage from another vehicle. I say this because the bottom tapered mounting bolt on the pump to engine mount bracket only had a standard flat seat allen head bolt in it and I presume it should either have a tapered sleeve or tapered seat bolt head to suit? Plus one of the nuts and washers didn't look O.E either. By the way, is that tapered recess a critical mounting surface to have correct or should the regular allen bolt be ok? It all sits square when mounted. Photo's attached:
Anyway strip down it is then... I've been mentally psyching myself up to this moment since yesterday:). I kind of figured that there would be little chance of a magic wand solution..
I'm glad that you approve of the VE pump rebuild website. I feel a lot better about trusting it now. I noticed that the pump in that site didn't have the turbo sensor UFO on top but I guessed it was very similar in other respects. I'll start on it first thing in the morning and keep you posted on my progress. I think these pumps are slowley beginning to make a little more sense to me now. Famous last words;)
By the way, is there anything I should or not use in the cleaning process. I've got plenty of throttle body cleaner & petrol. Is it ok to use a synthetic scotch brite pad to aggitate the tarnish build up, or just the solvent and a lint free cloth? Sleep time for now though.
Thanks Jim..
Last edited by patanga on 28 Feb 2011, 22:54, edited 3 times in total.
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 54888
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- x 8254
Hi Ron,
No, that bolt is not right. As you say, it should (and must be) a taper head bolt and it's critical. he pump vibrates considerably in operation and unless the bolt is correct and the nut and serrated washer are present and correct it'll vibrate loose. The same applies to the three on the mounting flange. The washers must be present and they must be done up tight.
It's a special bolt and getting one may be a game. If all else fails, one can be custom made on a lathe. You know the taper in the pump cradle and it would be a relatively straightforward job to match it. If not a special bolt, a brass collar could be turned up to allow the continued use of a normal bolt.
Carb cleaner is fine for cleaning and if that's not strong enough, try petrol.
Scotchbrite is fine on the steel bits but keep it well away from the alloy bits!
As I say, going on all the muck and varnish visible, I'll hazard the lift pump vanes are binding in their slots. All will soon be revealed.
Keep any questions coming Ron...
No, that bolt is not right. As you say, it should (and must be) a taper head bolt and it's critical. he pump vibrates considerably in operation and unless the bolt is correct and the nut and serrated washer are present and correct it'll vibrate loose. The same applies to the three on the mounting flange. The washers must be present and they must be done up tight.
It's a special bolt and getting one may be a game. If all else fails, one can be custom made on a lathe. You know the taper in the pump cradle and it would be a relatively straightforward job to match it. If not a special bolt, a brass collar could be turned up to allow the continued use of a normal bolt.
Carb cleaner is fine for cleaning and if that's not strong enough, try petrol.
Scotchbrite is fine on the steel bits but keep it well away from the alloy bits!
As I say, going on all the muck and varnish visible, I'll hazard the lift pump vanes are binding in their slots. All will soon be revealed.
Keep any questions coming Ron...
Jim
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
-
patanga
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 02:02
Progress report
Hi Jim.
The pump is in pieces now and I can't see anything that might have caused the clicking sound. The woodruff key was in place as was everything else. Seems like a bit of a mystery.
Regards the tarnish build up, I'm having a tough time removing it. Most of the parts have been soaking in petrol for the day and I also tried carby cleaner but its stuck fast. I have been able to remove some using the scotch brite pads but I doubt my chances on the harder to get to surfaces. Do you know of any other way because there is no way a cloth and solvent alone is going to touch the tarnish on the alloy housing. Is an ultrasonic bath worth a try?
Below are a couple of photo's of the main wear marks. You will notice a witness mark on the first pic where the roller cage rests on the pressure plate. Is that ok? For the most part it is just worn shinny but in some places it can just be felt with the edge of my fingernail. Not enough to get caught, just a very slight lip.
In photo 2 you will see the main drive shaft. There is an edge wear mark from the lip of the front seal and there are two other polish marks on the shafts main operating surfaces. Should I get it linished?
I'll leave the other bits soak over night in hope that the tarnish might soften up a little..... Have since done this with no great results.
Not sure if this is of interest but I've noticed that there is a very distinct tarnish tide mark on the inside of the housing. It starts at the rear edge of the timing control piston slot, at roughly the mid way point. Photo below. Inside the top rectangular section of the housing the tarnish covers the entire area.
I have also attached a photo of the drive cross coupling below. You will see that is also has a couple of witness marks which can be felt. Considering its function I don't imagine the wear is critical but I'm wondering if by turning it 90 degrees when refitting I can overcome the wear by giving the coupling and drive shaft at least one fresh new surface on which to operate. What do you think?
Oh and I am correct in presuming that the triangle fly weights in the governor aren't critically matched in the sequence that they go back together?
Cheers
Ron
I've decided to bite the bullet and get everything ultra sonic cleaned. I was planning to go to an engineering shop or carby specialist to get it done, but I didn't want to risk any damage or loss of parts by people who don't know diesels. I agonised for a day whether to go to a diesel specialist because I expected that I would be grilled as to why I was tackling the overhaul myself. As expected that is exactly what happened, but I managed to be nice and talk the guy around to doing the cleaning for me. Not cheap but a must do. Those diesel shops really don't like people tackling these things. The guy recommended that I get a new main drive shaft because of the seal lip edge wear. Fair enough I thought, so I've got one coming. I'm already up around $400 in spend for parts, cleaning and a couple of tools. Would I tackle this job again? Yes I would, but then I have most of the gear and have most of the skills needed. If you are in the UK, aren't highly mechanical and are following this thread, my advice would be to talk to Citro Jim (from this forum) and see if you can buy an exchange unit from him (or a reputable diesel specialst) as it is quite involved and if you damage something, you do risk trashing the whole pump.
The pump is in pieces now and I can't see anything that might have caused the clicking sound. The woodruff key was in place as was everything else. Seems like a bit of a mystery.
Regards the tarnish build up, I'm having a tough time removing it. Most of the parts have been soaking in petrol for the day and I also tried carby cleaner but its stuck fast. I have been able to remove some using the scotch brite pads but I doubt my chances on the harder to get to surfaces. Do you know of any other way because there is no way a cloth and solvent alone is going to touch the tarnish on the alloy housing. Is an ultrasonic bath worth a try?
Below are a couple of photo's of the main wear marks. You will notice a witness mark on the first pic where the roller cage rests on the pressure plate. Is that ok? For the most part it is just worn shinny but in some places it can just be felt with the edge of my fingernail. Not enough to get caught, just a very slight lip.
In photo 2 you will see the main drive shaft. There is an edge wear mark from the lip of the front seal and there are two other polish marks on the shafts main operating surfaces. Should I get it linished?
I'll leave the other bits soak over night in hope that the tarnish might soften up a little..... Have since done this with no great results.
Not sure if this is of interest but I've noticed that there is a very distinct tarnish tide mark on the inside of the housing. It starts at the rear edge of the timing control piston slot, at roughly the mid way point. Photo below. Inside the top rectangular section of the housing the tarnish covers the entire area.
I have also attached a photo of the drive cross coupling below. You will see that is also has a couple of witness marks which can be felt. Considering its function I don't imagine the wear is critical but I'm wondering if by turning it 90 degrees when refitting I can overcome the wear by giving the coupling and drive shaft at least one fresh new surface on which to operate. What do you think?
Oh and I am correct in presuming that the triangle fly weights in the governor aren't critically matched in the sequence that they go back together?
Cheers
Ron
I've decided to bite the bullet and get everything ultra sonic cleaned. I was planning to go to an engineering shop or carby specialist to get it done, but I didn't want to risk any damage or loss of parts by people who don't know diesels. I agonised for a day whether to go to a diesel specialist because I expected that I would be grilled as to why I was tackling the overhaul myself. As expected that is exactly what happened, but I managed to be nice and talk the guy around to doing the cleaning for me. Not cheap but a must do. Those diesel shops really don't like people tackling these things. The guy recommended that I get a new main drive shaft because of the seal lip edge wear. Fair enough I thought, so I've got one coming. I'm already up around $400 in spend for parts, cleaning and a couple of tools. Would I tackle this job again? Yes I would, but then I have most of the gear and have most of the skills needed. If you are in the UK, aren't highly mechanical and are following this thread, my advice would be to talk to Citro Jim (from this forum) and see if you can buy an exchange unit from him (or a reputable diesel specialst) as it is quite involved and if you damage something, you do risk trashing the whole pump.
Last edited by patanga on 02 Mar 2011, 21:05, edited 1 time in total.
-
CitroJim
- A very naughty boy
- Posts: 54888
- Joined: 30 Apr 2005, 23:33
- x 8254
Hi Ron,
Sorry for the delay in responding to this incredibly interesting thread...
That's quite a lot of wear in places... The driveshaft does seem to be showing quite a lot of wear and so does the lift pump plate where the cam ring touches it. It will be worth checking the phosphor bronze driveshaft bearings in the housing.. I've not seen a lift pump plate that badly marked from memory.
The witness marks on the cruciform drive coupling are new to me. The spring that sits in the middle of the coupling should really keep them separated. I take it you have the spring as if it was absent the it might account for the clicking and lateral movement of the driveshaft when it is rotated. It could too account for the deep witness marks on the lift pump plate.
The wear mark in the body in the vicinity of the timing device is normal. It is worth checking the timing device piston to make sure it has no significant wear, indicated by the black coating being worn off.
I've seen a wear mark on the driveshaft where the seal sits but it rarely causes a problem after a bit of a burnish with Scotchbrite...
How on earth much is a new driveshaft going to cost?
I can imagine the diesel mob being a bit incredulous with you. They jealously guard their secrets!!!
Sorry for the delay in responding to this incredibly interesting thread...
That's quite a lot of wear in places... The driveshaft does seem to be showing quite a lot of wear and so does the lift pump plate where the cam ring touches it. It will be worth checking the phosphor bronze driveshaft bearings in the housing.. I've not seen a lift pump plate that badly marked from memory.
The witness marks on the cruciform drive coupling are new to me. The spring that sits in the middle of the coupling should really keep them separated. I take it you have the spring as if it was absent the it might account for the clicking and lateral movement of the driveshaft when it is rotated. It could too account for the deep witness marks on the lift pump plate.
The wear mark in the body in the vicinity of the timing device is normal. It is worth checking the timing device piston to make sure it has no significant wear, indicated by the black coating being worn off.
I've seen a wear mark on the driveshaft where the seal sits but it rarely causes a problem after a bit of a burnish with Scotchbrite...
How on earth much is a new driveshaft going to cost?
I can imagine the diesel mob being a bit incredulous with you. They jealously guard their secrets!!!
Jim
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
A bit of a Citroen AX fan...
-
patanga
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 01 Jan 2011, 02:02
Hi Jim..
I think the operating surface on the drive shaft is ok. The wear marks you see are just running marks as far as I can see and there is no wear that can be felt other than the seal lip edge. The main shaft is going to cost around $200 AUD or say 125 GBP in your money. I tried the old shaft in the bushes and there didn't appear to be any unusual lateral movement from memory. I'll check again when everything is back from being cleaned.
I've attached a pic of all the parts as they were on the bench shortly after the strip down. The cross drive spring you mentioned is there. Plus there is another pic of the spring in place as I was taking everything a part. Let me know if you see anything else out of the ordinary.
I am now even more curious as to the extraordinary wear that you mentioned?.. Could the wear in the pressure plate and cross drive etc have an accumulative effect in being the cause of the lateral movement in the shaft?
I'm also wondering if it is possible that the previous owner had been using poor quality diesel that lacked the additives and lubricants to keep things running smootly inside the pump?
Another thought regards the drive cross/cam plate spring; Do you know if there is a specified free length for the spring?... I've measure this one and it is 16mm in free length. See photo:
Do you have a drive coupling spring that you know to be good and can compare against my 16mm spec? I spoke with the Bosch parts agents but as there are no springs in the country they have nothing to compare. I don't like my chances of getting the allowable tollerance spec from my local diesel repairer. Secret squirrel business and all.
I'm wondering if the spring could be fatigued and have sagged. It has after all been working hard for 275,000Km. The Bosch agent did say that they rarely sell any of those springs so maybe they last the distance?? It would be interesting to hold the new spring against the old one to compare lengths. Being that there were four distinct clicks per rotation and based on the witness marks on the drive contact points I'm wondering if it could be the cause of the noise and the end float????
I've also included a pic of the timing device piston as it was being removed. There are no polish or wear marks on it and the black is in tact over the surface of the piston. The internal pivot roller in the piston does have a polished side but I figure this would be normal considering that it moves a lot.
Cheers
Ron
P.s. Parts are all back for the being cleaned and I am impressed. Wasn't cheap but wow!.. I've decided to reuse the main shaft because it linished up very well and the seal groove looks less aggressive now. Glad to save the expense as well.
Now that everything is so clean I've had a closer look at some things under the magnifying glass and I can see what looks like very small hairline cracks at the very base of the distributor outlet ports 'A, B & C'. When I say the base I mean below the copper washer seat in the very bottom concave recess. Should I be alarmed? Port 'D' looks exactly as I'd expect it should, but the other three do have what looks like finger stress cracking starting at the centre of each concave and to varying lengths working their way outwards????... I'm hoping for a "it'll be fine response" so I can sleep easy.. I couldn't get the camera to focus on the deepest point so I can only post a pic of the area I am refering to.
I think the operating surface on the drive shaft is ok. The wear marks you see are just running marks as far as I can see and there is no wear that can be felt other than the seal lip edge. The main shaft is going to cost around $200 AUD or say 125 GBP in your money. I tried the old shaft in the bushes and there didn't appear to be any unusual lateral movement from memory. I'll check again when everything is back from being cleaned.
I've attached a pic of all the parts as they were on the bench shortly after the strip down. The cross drive spring you mentioned is there. Plus there is another pic of the spring in place as I was taking everything a part. Let me know if you see anything else out of the ordinary.
I am now even more curious as to the extraordinary wear that you mentioned?.. Could the wear in the pressure plate and cross drive etc have an accumulative effect in being the cause of the lateral movement in the shaft?
I'm also wondering if it is possible that the previous owner had been using poor quality diesel that lacked the additives and lubricants to keep things running smootly inside the pump?
Another thought regards the drive cross/cam plate spring; Do you know if there is a specified free length for the spring?... I've measure this one and it is 16mm in free length. See photo:
Do you have a drive coupling spring that you know to be good and can compare against my 16mm spec? I spoke with the Bosch parts agents but as there are no springs in the country they have nothing to compare. I don't like my chances of getting the allowable tollerance spec from my local diesel repairer. Secret squirrel business and all.
I'm wondering if the spring could be fatigued and have sagged. It has after all been working hard for 275,000Km. The Bosch agent did say that they rarely sell any of those springs so maybe they last the distance?? It would be interesting to hold the new spring against the old one to compare lengths. Being that there were four distinct clicks per rotation and based on the witness marks on the drive contact points I'm wondering if it could be the cause of the noise and the end float????
I've also included a pic of the timing device piston as it was being removed. There are no polish or wear marks on it and the black is in tact over the surface of the piston. The internal pivot roller in the piston does have a polished side but I figure this would be normal considering that it moves a lot.
Cheers
Ron
P.s. Parts are all back for the being cleaned and I am impressed. Wasn't cheap but wow!.. I've decided to reuse the main shaft because it linished up very well and the seal groove looks less aggressive now. Glad to save the expense as well.
Now that everything is so clean I've had a closer look at some things under the magnifying glass and I can see what looks like very small hairline cracks at the very base of the distributor outlet ports 'A, B & C'. When I say the base I mean below the copper washer seat in the very bottom concave recess. Should I be alarmed? Port 'D' looks exactly as I'd expect it should, but the other three do have what looks like finger stress cracking starting at the centre of each concave and to varying lengths working their way outwards????... I'm hoping for a "it'll be fine response" so I can sleep easy.. I couldn't get the camera to focus on the deepest point so I can only post a pic of the area I am refering to.
Last edited by patanga on 03 Mar 2011, 22:15, edited 9 times in total.