Washer jet heaters

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 07 Dec 2010, 13:06

I've been thinking about the possibility of t-ing in a compressor to blow the lines clear of water.
Couple of one way valves and maybe the compressor used in an air horn.

They do it in Canada with their garden sprinkler systems to stop them freezing.

Citroenmad · Unread post by **Citroenmad** » 07 Dec 2010, 13:12

mooseshaver wrote:
Citroenmad wrote: Im guessing C5s have heated washer jets, as ive not had them freeze as yet, even with -10 temperatures.
My rear one freezes often, and sometimes the front, so my VTR cannot have them. And on a trip through freezing fog, at the top of the hill I used my screenwash, it froze on the windscreen, (temp -5) then melted at the bottom of the hill (-2). I'm guessing my mix of anti-freeze is not as strong as yours

I only very rarely use my rear washer, as its a hatch the rear screen doesn't get dirty very often, just wet. The two jets for the rear screen of mine are in the ariel base, they will be vulnerable to freezing I bet. I was under the impression heated jets work with the rear heated window switch, which also works the mirrors.

Ill find out if the C5s do have them, for some reason I thought they do, but ive put doubt in my mind now.

Yes, you can have a problem with it freezing once it gets to the screen, but a stronger mixture should help.

Citroenmad · Unread post by **Citroenmad** » 07 Dec 2010, 13:26

Hmm, just checked my C5, it does not have heated washer jets. Obviously my screen wash is rather good!

jimleshed · Unread post by **jimleshed** » 07 Dec 2010, 13:41

Last year my washers froze too....since then I just run with a very strong mix of screen wash solution (almost 100%) when its cold. Seems fine down to at least -6 (coldest its got here). Far simpler than trying to heat the jets.

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 07 Dec 2010, 15:23

With regard to the winter pack mentioned above, it was an option on S1 V6 Exclusive, VSX and IIRC SX models, the pack consisted of heated seats, heated windscreen washer nozzles and windscreen washers.

On S2 Exclusives I believe the winter pack was fitted as standard but still only contained the three elements mentioned above, the additional diesel burning heater was fitted as standard to HDi Exclusive models made some time later than RP 8043, the exact date appears to be unknown. Prior to the changeover point glowplugs were fitted to the heater matrix inlet hose.

On the subject of heated washer nozzles, heating the supply pipework won't stop the nozzles freezing, either use a stronger wash solution or fit the heated nozzles.

When I get the chance I'll have a dig around my spares stash, I may have a couple of heated nozzles in there.

reblack68 · Unread post by **reblack68** » 07 Dec 2010, 15:29

Freezing washer jets are purely down to shoddy design, just one of many things it's become acceptable to do a "that'll do" job on.

Windscreen washers have always frozen but front ones at least would defrost during a journey and stay clear until the end of the journey. Now washer tanks are isolated from the engine, the pipework is routed away from any available heat and the jets are sometimes actively insulated from the engine.

Also- washer fluid. For a mixture of any two liquids there is a eutectic mixture, where the freezing point is as low as it can get. Add more of either constituent and the freezing point rises. (This applies to alloys too, eutectic solder is roughly 67%tin and 37% lead). No washer fluid manufacturer I've seen tells you what the best mix is, they all say "more is more", which simply isn't the case.

Here endeth today's rant, tomorrow's rant will be lighting.

Unread post by **citroenxm** » 07 Dec 2010, 17:22

DickieG wrote:With regard to the winter pack mentioned above, it was an option on S1 V6 Exclusive, VSX and IIRC SX models, the pack consisted of heated seats, heated windscreen washer nozzles and windscreen washers.

I should hope there windscreen washers fitted as standard, let alone as an option...

Paul

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 07 Dec 2010, 17:38

citroenxm wrote:
DickieG wrote:With regard to the winter pack mentioned above, it was an option on S1 V6 Exclusive, VSX and IIRC SX models, the pack consisted of heated seats, heated windscreen washer nozzles and windscreen washers.

I should hope there windscreen washers fitted as standard, let alone as an option...

Doh! I meant headlamp washers

I'm very tired after spending most of last night awake being excited about my new purchase, well that's my excuse!

imperial21 · Unread post by **imperial21** » 07 Dec 2010, 17:54

my xantia exclusive has heated washer jets !!!

but of interest if i found the aux heater on scrap car would the wiring be fitted to all exclusive models ?

addo · Unread post by **addo** » 07 Dec 2010, 18:17

It probably is. Seemed that Citroën saw merit in keeping few variations to the harness - also allowed for people upgrade their car readily (maybe not quite so readily as the XM series II cruise control)...

spider · Unread post by **spider** » 07 Dec 2010, 18:24

I agree regarding the location, these days its tucked away in the bumper area so not likely to get any warmth. To be fair that does mean capacities have increased to sensible levels.

Some boy racer store once sold a washer pipe heater, this consisted of a piece of moulded plastic (you cut your main heater pipe and used this) and a smaller piece spiralled around the outside (this was connected to your washer pipe)

In theory these are OK, but the problem I think even with this and heated jets, if the bottle contents are frozen solid its going to take forever to thaw them out.

Models with it in the bumper are probably more subject to wind chill factors too, even if its 'insulated' with the bumper, it will still eventually freeze. If you use too strong a concentrate of washer fluid apart from the expense it seems to like to congeal too, just for added entertainment

I thought about wrapping my washer pipe (as I changed it) around the heater hoses but once the bottle is frozen you've 'lost' anyway really (and mine is on the inner wing out the way)

Rant over

Unread post by **RichardW** » 07 Dec 2010, 21:24

reblack68 wrote:Also- washer fluid. For a mixture of any two liquids there is a eutectic mixture, where the freezing point is as low as it can get. Add more of either constituent and the freezing point rises. (This applies to alloys too, eutectic solder is roughly 67%tin and 37% lead). No washer fluid manufacturer I've seen tells you what the best mix is, they all say "more is more", which simply isn't the case.

Not all mixtures are eutectic - most likely they use iso proply alcohol in screenwash (HMRC would never let them get away with ethanol!) and this exhibits depression of freezing point with increasing concentration: IPA water data. Ethylene glycol (as in antifreeze) does have a minimum freezing point at around 65% E-G.

Interestingly you can get a similar effect at boiling point - such a mixture being known as azeotropic - water / ethanol exhibits this behaviour with a minimum boiling point (azeotrope) at 95.6% ethanol - so you can't directly distill 100% ethanol from water / ethanol mix.

Back to the orignal topic - it seems you can get some 'supercharged' screenwashes that are supposed to go down to -70 - maybe I just need to try harder!

I've also had trouble with the pivots in the wiper blades freezing and meaning that that blades miss half the screen - the half I'm trying to look through - so I took the blade off last night and oiled the pivots - seems to work much better now!

Below -12 already here - it's going to be baltic in the morning!

DickieG · Unread post by **DickieG** » 07 Dec 2010, 21:49

imperial21 wrote:my Xantia exclusive has heated washer jets !!! but of interest if i found the aux heater on scrap car would the wiring be fitted to all exclusive models ?

It may be but from having now looked at quite a number of HDi Exclusives it appears that early ones came with the glowplugs in the heater hose and later ones had the diesel burning heater so whether the wiring was put there in advance I wouldn't know at this stage but the conversion won't be easy as you'll need to have an additional fuel line plumbed in as well as the wiring. Bear in mind that those heaters take several minutes to even start up but when they are going they work well as well as being good fun with the noise and smoke

but by now most of them no longer work and will require a repair. Personally unless its already fitted I wouldn't bother, I had one on my last HDi and had fun/frustration in equal measures with it.

Unread post by **RichardW** » 08 Dec 2010, 07:50

I wrote:Below -12 already here - it's going to be baltic in the morning!

Disappointingly weather station was only reporting -14.6°C this morning

Car initially said -16, but I did see -17 for a bit. Brrrrr!!!!! It was a bit reluctant to start, taking about twice as much cranking, and had to go through a couple of half fires before it would run. Must be getting to the limit of starting diesels at that temp - I might stick a new set of plugs in it next summer anyway - it's done 110k so far on the originals.

Screnwashers still frozen solid - supposed to be warmer over the weekend so I'll see if I can find some stronger screenwash and top it up with that. More cold forecast next week

dieselnutjob · Unread post by **dieselnutjob** » 08 Dec 2010, 10:17

I have seen 12V immersion heater elements for sale.
Maybe if a metal box was put near to the jets and the water fed through it, you could heat the water with one of these elements. You would also need a thermostat.
You would want the box to just big enough to give a reasonable length of water squirting.
If the water was heated to say 30 degrees if would melt ice off your windscreen nicely without being hot enough to crack it.