Aircon help, please dont move it to aircon section

[DoubleChevron]

If there is a small amount of gas in the system (ie: most has leaked away over time) the compressor will not start, and sometimes you can't add more gas... If you bridge the pressure switch it will allow the compressor to start and draw more gas in the suction side.

I know very little about this stuff though, so don't take my word for to much 8)

seeya,
Shane L.

[wrinklet1]

Ok Guys,
I had a local mobile Aircon specialist look at my cars aircon ae KwikFit not doing the job!!!!
He drained the system and nasty foam type stuff cam out. He hadnt a clue what KF had put in!!!!, He put some liquid in to clean the system out and then refilled it. Once checked he put some UV dye in it. Checked for leaks (there was non) and it also is greaan so I can see the gas/fluid in the sight glass.
£50 for the lot...........
Cool interior..........
Nice.........

Paul

[oscarloco]

And I thought these things happened only here. I've heard of "experts" putting R134 on old R12 cars and viceversa.

[CitroJim]

I've heard of "experts" putting R134 on old R12 cars and viceversa.

That's unforgivable After all the reports of experiences with certain outfits reported here, I'm very much of the opinion that all aircon regassing work is very much best left to the specialists...

[DoubleChevron]

Gee's your air-con guys are very cheap over there .... They also appear to have no idea what they are doing.

It would be highly unlikely to get away with a "cheap" regass out here. If there no gas in there, and the air-con won't work ... It has a leak... simple as that. Finding it isn't always easy, even if you have all the special leak testers

seeya,
Shane L.

[fridgedoc]

Hi All

Well I am going to be blunt......... some people should stick to fitting tyres
.
These automatic machines where designed and invented for two reasons (IMO).

1. To make it possible for a Wally to recharged an A/C system on a car without any previous knowledge of A/C

2. To make the manufacturers of said machines lots of money.

All would be well if said Wally pressed the right buttons in the right sequence.

A few things that I was called in to look at .......

At a main dealer, they had charged this system and now the A/C was making a funny noise.....I did not use their machine just fitted my set of gauges, with car running turned on A/C within seconds turned off and knew what fault was.....totally overcharged system, I removed some of the refrigerant until system settled down and ran OK..... they had pressed the charge button twice!!!!!!!

Customer came to me after same situation as previous postings, they could not charge her system as it showed a leak, Tried as I could, I could not find a leak so recharged system and added dye advise customer to run A/C and call back in a weeks time, in the meanwhile had another 4 people come in with the same problem from the same place (no one had been charged any monies) I went and spoke to the owner and checked his 6 week old machine over, there was a leak on the suction hose checking hose connections is something an A/C enginer should do everytime he/she uses their gauges.

Hence the reason why a "proper" A/C engineer's prices are not £45 to recharge a system.

Wrinkllet1.

Your nasty foam was no more than oil contaminated with refrigerant, I hope he replaced the oil that came out!!! otherwise your system will be running with insufficiant oil in it, also may I point out, if he cleaned out the system properly that would have flushed out even more oil, and you cannot flush a system with the compressor still in the circuit.

The more I read your posts the more I worry, I would get the oil level checked if it where my car.

Shane L.

I promise I will not take your word for it...............just to correct what you have posted, you are NOT totally wrong but you are confussing the issue, (what a little knowledge can do)
On a recharge machine, which most if not all these people use in the UK, the refrigerant is charged in the liquid form and into a system that has had a vaccuum drawn on it, so all the refrigerant will enter the system without the car running, what you are talking about my friend is someone has fitted a set of gauges to the suction side with a bottle of refrigerant and trying to charge it with vapour/gas this is not good with R134a was OK with R12 (oh those happy days) so hence you need the compressor running to draw the refrigerant into the system the only problem with this is the compressor needs a full charge to make sure it does not overheat and seize, hence why it is best to evacuate the system before charging.

Andycarter

It's a red herring see above.

Xac
Why not take it to the specialist in the first place????????

h2ocooler
That's because he was not fully trained and had just a little experience.

DoubleChevron.

Your guys have no idea what they are doing if they don't have the air-con even switched on...

You can't charge the system from the "high" side fully

Wrong on both accounts.

You do not need the system running if you charge by weight......
You DO charge the system with liquid refrigerant on the high sideand if done by weight, fully charged.

Sid the Squid

See first line of this post

Glad I am retired now

[DoubleChevron]

Quote:
Your guys have no idea what they are doing if they don't have the air-con even switched on...

You can't charge the system from the "high" side fully


Wrong on both accounts.

You do not need the system running if you charge by weight......
You DO charge the system with liquid refrigerant on the high sideand if done by weight, fully charged.

Ok, ok.....

Let me rephrase that. I charge my system with hydrocarbon refrigerant... ie: the system is recharged with refrigerant in a liquid state. So you vac the system down and put as much of the charge weight in as you can through the high side (obviously system off.... otherwise the high side will be .... well high ). You add as much as you can via the high side. If you can't get the full charge in (likely) close the high side, turn the air-con and dribble the rest very slowly in on the low side. The reason you need to be careful is there is a danger of adding to much to quickly and giving the compressor a liquid slug (which would destroy it).

I don't have any fancy machines here and only do my own cars (and friends cars). Only using hydrocarbon (hychill -30 or HR12) gas. This gas provides the same cooling efficiency as R12 so is ideal for my older cars. I refuse to (and can't use) R134a as you need a refrigeration license out here to even purchase it!!! If they tried to prevent us buying HR12, you would need a refrigeration license to buy BBQ gas.... 'Cos all HR12 is, is a mix of butane and propane.

All I have here is an old Dial-a-charge system with vacuum pump, and ancient R12 recovery machine. I only recover HR12 if I want to re-use it though. no fancy buttons to press ... nothing automatic

So your telling me the machines they are using are recovering the gas, then recharging the system forcing the correct amount of gas into the system if required using a pump ... So they can actually put a double charge in if not careful They don't even throw guages on it to see what the air-con is doing ??? That's just crazy!!!

seeya,
Shane L.

[Xaccers]

Xac
Why not take it to the specialist in the first place????????

You answered that question yourself

a "proper" A/C engineer's prices are not £45 to recharge a system.

Had a look on google, prices seem to range from £60 for a regas (doesn't include oil!) to over £85 for a "proper" regas (leak check, vacuum, oil etc).
One place wants £35 extra to release one of those antibac/odour killer sprays, or £55 on it's own!

A free aircon check and then £45 if there are no faults found and the process is successful seems reasonable to me, especially as the machine tells the operator which oil needs to be used, whereas a "specialist" may not actually know and end up using the wrong type (assuming their "specialist" machine doesn't also lead them through each step with basic instructions).
They're also few and far between, a quick search on Yell for "air con" in MK produces plenty of results should you want your office chilled, but nothing for your car.

[CitroJim]

You know Shane, all this aircon stuff is rather new to us Poms whereas you lot down there have been at it for donkeys, as I know, out of sheer necessity. Especially in the Territory, a non air-con car is the nearest thing to purgatory I can think of...

Us Poms, well, we've only recently got the weather to warrant aircon and we're still very much learning about it and how to exist generally when the mercury edges above 20 degrees C.

You know, I'm sure our weather was better when temperatures were measured in Fairenheit

[falling-out-with-my-car]

if you don't want to contract Leigionares disease regular filter and the anti-bac spray will help kill the bugs in the vents that cause it.

regards Nigel.

[DoubleChevron]

That's insane ..... Your not going to get Leigionares from a cars air-con .... It grows in cooling towers

Nah, aussies know nothing about air-con generally. I'm just insane enough to find some old equipment (very cheaply) then study the training books/manuals you must read and understand in order to get your refrigeration certificate. The difference is I haven't bothered getting the certificate ... 'cos what's the point when I'm only doing my own cars

Bottom line is people like me know enough to gets themselves into trouble ( Yep, I learn everything by screwing it up the first dozen times ). The reason Alan S was so good at air-con is he used to be an industrial refrigeration mechanic.

The reason a proper air-con mechanic is expensive, is it's quite time consuming. Eg: 45quid ??? The trade price out here on an XM reciever drier is $85aud (so about 40quid)... so your guys obviously aren't changing the RD. ANY system that has been "opened" for any reason must have the drier changed.... Then there's the oil, to check the level of oil I don't have the documentation for my cars that states the exact capacity of oil in the compressor. So using the oil level check in the "old" manuals, you make yourself a dipstick.... easy enough right ??

Well first you must find the leak and fix it... vac the system down and see if it'll hold a vacuum (though this doesn't guarantee it's leak free, as it may only leak under positive pressure). If it holds a vacuum, change the receiver drier and add the 15ml (or whatever) of oil the RD holds.... and vac it down for as long as possible to boil off any moisture. Then add the correct charge weight of gas.

Now run the system full bore to circulate all the oill, then remove all the gas again, remove the compressor (if you need to in order access the filler) and check the level, you can now adjust the level to the calibrations on the dipstick (using the diagram that shows the level dependent on the angle the compressor is mounted on). Then once again, vacuum down, and add refrigerant ... and test again.

Air-con isn't difficult, but it's sure as sh!t not dead simple like we would like to believe (ie: where a 45quid "charge' will have fixed anything). I've probably missed quite a few of steps above, but it gives you an idea of why this stuff isn't cheap!

seeya,
Shane L.

[fridgedoc]

Shanne

I am not here to cut you down but to try and help, only after a lifetime of working in the refrigeration/air-con industry do I feel confident to "Quote" on the subject and even now I don't know all the answers !!!!!

I know a little about Citroens (as I have one myself) but I do not tell everyone this is how to repair a Citroen unless I am 100% sure on what I am saying otherwise I might put them wrong.

Re-phrasing is nice of you but what you have already stated and loudly if I may say, has given people wrong information which in turn they may stated to someone else and we end up with lots of people with totally the wrong info, we are here to help one another not hinder, I am sure you passed on what you thought was right, but as we all know"what thought did ..........He thought he tightened the nuts, till the wheels fell off"......

Shanne I full understand what you are trying to say, most people would not, your blend is propane and isobutane it's all too easy to say butane when it's not, similar but NOT the same, these little things are important when you are trying explaining things to people.

Now I am not sure whether HR12 is available in the UK the only product I have used is Calor Care 30 which is a 50/50 blend of propane (R290) and Isobutane (R600a) which is the same blend as hr12.
I note now that BOC. are now the owners of Care 30 and only supply to trained engineers due to the hazardous nature of the refrigerant, mind you I did the Calor course as they would not supply unless you did the training course and that was in 1994 if I remember correctly wow!!!! that long ago......frightening!!!!!!!!!!!

Please Note:
Due to their hazardous nature, BOC only supplies CARE hydrocarbons to those who have completed BOC's hydrocarbon training course. For information regarding training courses click here

Taken from the BOC. site....

5. SAFETY
5.1 Flammability
All CARE refrigerants are highly flammable but non-toxic. They are classified “A3” according to the European
Standard BS EN 378: 2000 “Refrigerating systems and heat pumps - Safety and environmental requirements”.
Requirements are also provided in the Institute of Refrigeration Safety Code for Refrigerating Systems Utilising
Group A3 Refrigerants (www.ior.org.uk) and the ACRIB Guidelines for the Use of Hydrocarbon Refrigerants
(www.acrib.org.uk). Refer also to EN 60335-2-24 for use of flammable refrigerants in domestic refrigerators, EN
60335-2-40 for air conditioners and heat pumps, and EN 60335-2-89 for commercial refrigeration. Reference should
be made to these documents, which detail the requirements for the safe use of flammable refrigerants in domestic,
commercial and industrial applications.

This info is from the hr12 site


Product Composition
• Purified Hydrocarbon Refrigerant
• 50% Propane and 50% Isobutane (approx.)
• Cylinder has a liquid withdrawal valve
(upright position labelled)
• Cylinder holds 9 kg which will charge
up to cars
• Packed in a cardboard box with information
kit containing refrigerant identification
labels, material safety data sheet and
other usage guidance information.
Product Characteristics
• Superior heat rejection – gives better
condenser heat exchange performance
• 30% by weight required of recommended
fluorocarbon refrigerant charge or refer to
charge weight section.
• Digital scales recommended – they save
a great deal of time and also help to
prevent refrigerant wastage.
• HR12 is compatible with any refrigerant
lubricant, however we strongly recommend
a system flush and use of ERG500 oil in
all systems

Note...They Stongly Recommend a System Flush and Oil Change.
If you do carry out a flush and oil change it becomes a very expensive operation, if you don't and a compressor seizes what then, are you now going to fit a new compressor etc at your expence??????
HR12 will not cover it as you did not carry out an oil change etc

too many if's and but's for me

For their safety sheet go here:-

http://tamahereforum.files.wordpress.co ... edures.pdf

Best of luck with it, like I said glad I'm retired



ps. I have tried to associate all quotes with the companies concerned if I have missed anything let me know so I may put it right. Thank you.

[DoubleChevron]

I don't get what your trying to say ?? I have flushed and changed the oil on my own air-con systems ?? But I also just put HR12 over the top of R134a in my old Xantia and it worked PERFECTLY... for several years.... No compressor issues. So long as you have never allowed moisture into the system, I don't see why you would have a problem.

I can understand why they strongly recommend changing the oil... If R12 and R134a has been used, it's likely oils have been mixed at some point (which as you know are not compatible). In a 20+ year old system it's highly likely the system has been "opened" at some point in time.. .which would cause the system to be full of moisture. Any and ever manufacturer is going to strongly recommend the oil is changed as they don't know the history of the cars air-con.

I fitted twin air-con to my CX and flushed the lot out with shellite (except the compressor of course) and have had no issues (other than I crashed the car within weeks of fitting the air-con ).

My point stands, here in Austrlia if they legislated we had to have a refrigeration certificate to buy HR12..... This would entail legislating a lot of propane based fuels would be un-able to be purchased. Eg: buying gas for our cars, it has propane, isobutane ... and whatever else they feel like putting in it at the time. The propane gives the line pressure so the motor will run properly. Infact I know people out here that use LPG/propane/BBQ gas to charge there air-con systems with. As the blend isn't perfect like HR12 it's likely the system would run very high head pressures, which may well damage the compressor in the long term.

If your worried about HR12 being "explosive" ... research the subject, the only car air-con fires that can be found are all R134a systems... This is due to the oil being flamable.

With 80litres of high octain fuel in a plastic fuel tank, 80litres of fuel in the propane tank ..... somehow 250grams of HR12 in the air-con doesn't worry me at all. Infact every "Greenfreeze" type gas out there in domestic refrigerators and cars etc.... IS a propane mix!

seeya,
Shane L.

[fridgedoc]

Shanne

Where I live now I don't worry about anything really apart from shall I take the dog for a walk now or later, I was pointing out facts and "Proper procedure", you do what you want.

[DoubleChevron]

Um,

thanks ... I think Ok, I'll just keep doing what isn't the proper procedure... That being flushing the system, changing the oil, fixing any leaks, vac'ing the system down for a long as possible, changing the RD and gassing her up.

To be honest, I'll be damned if I can see how your doing anything at all differently to me (other than using exotic modern machines that push the correct charge weight into the air-con for you).

seeya,
Shane L.