Sounds silly - but are the glowplugs actually working or is there a problem with the relay / timer unit?
What about 'jump leading' the plugs straight to the battery having disconnected the supply cable and seeing if there is any difference?
jeremy
1.9 td Poor cold starting (CURED!!!!!!!!!!)
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NiSk
- Posts: 1422
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- x 1
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jeremy
- Posts: 3959
- Joined: 20 Oct 2002, 16:00
- x 2
The cold start device you refer to provides a small increase in idling speed when cold by advancing the timing slightly. This is done electrically by means of contacts in the rubber bellows near the cable end on the pump.
Having had the thermostat unit fail on my BX I would say that it always started but was not very happy when cold. This was improved significantly with new injectors and with old injectors the unit made no difference at all.
Jeremy
Having had the thermostat unit fail on my BX I would say that it always started but was not very happy when cold. This was improved significantly with new injectors and with old injectors the unit made no difference at all.
Jeremy
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- x 2
Jeremy, I have yet to see a Lucas pump on a td xantia, only ever seen Bosch, non td xantia's on the other hand mostly seem to have the Lucas pump fitted.
The waxtat cable goes to a lever on the back of a Bosch pump.
The glow plugs from a BX are very likely to rubbish the glow relay, plugs intended for a xantia td are of the post glow type which is probably why they cost more that twice as much as those for a BX, post glow can last up to three minutes.
A family member once had a relay trashed on his ZX td by having the wrong plugs fitted, nor did those plugs work correctly in providing any improvement in starting before they killed the relay.
New relay and correct plugs, problem solved.
Dave
The waxtat cable goes to a lever on the back of a Bosch pump.
The glow plugs from a BX are very likely to rubbish the glow relay, plugs intended for a xantia td are of the post glow type which is probably why they cost more that twice as much as those for a BX, post glow can last up to three minutes.
A family member once had a relay trashed on his ZX td by having the wrong plugs fitted, nor did those plugs work correctly in providing any improvement in starting before they killed the relay.
New relay and correct plugs, problem solved.
Dave
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cash
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 08 Apr 2003, 01:40
hi guys
i too have a xantia with the same problem.i bought the car like it thinking it was an injector problem.i changed the injectors for new ones and it was still the same cloud of white smoke when starting,i then changed the glowplugs and still no better.the relay box for the pre heater then died so i changed that still the same.the next thought was the pump timing was out so i advanced it a bit and it was much better but still not perfect i messed around with the timing trying different settings but its not right.the next problem was a head gasket failure or so i thought.i took the head off to find the head had cracked.i took it to a specialist who said it wasnt the original head on the car it was the one from a 405td.i have put the new head on and it still puffs white smoke out when you start it from cold.i have spent hours trying to work out what is wrong and i am convinced it is a compression problem.originaly the pump timing was out and that is worth checking first it helped mine a lot when i advanced it a bit.one of the things i am wondering is there are several head gaskets for these engines.you are supposed to measure up the piston protusion and select the right one.if you put in one wich is to thick you lower the compession,would this be enough to cause the bad starting or am i barking up the wrong tree?i havent done a compression test but i did a leak down test when the head was off and it was fine.
i too have a xantia with the same problem.i bought the car like it thinking it was an injector problem.i changed the injectors for new ones and it was still the same cloud of white smoke when starting,i then changed the glowplugs and still no better.the relay box for the pre heater then died so i changed that still the same.the next thought was the pump timing was out so i advanced it a bit and it was much better but still not perfect i messed around with the timing trying different settings but its not right.the next problem was a head gasket failure or so i thought.i took the head off to find the head had cracked.i took it to a specialist who said it wasnt the original head on the car it was the one from a 405td.i have put the new head on and it still puffs white smoke out when you start it from cold.i have spent hours trying to work out what is wrong and i am convinced it is a compression problem.originaly the pump timing was out and that is worth checking first it helped mine a lot when i advanced it a bit.one of the things i am wondering is there are several head gaskets for these engines.you are supposed to measure up the piston protusion and select the right one.if you put in one wich is to thick you lower the compession,would this be enough to cause the bad starting or am i barking up the wrong tree?i havent done a compression test but i did a leak down test when the head was off and it was fine.
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andrew b
- Posts: 7
- Joined: 08 Apr 2003, 02:00
hi guys
i too have a xantia with the same problem.i bought the car like it thinking it was an injector problem.i changed the injectors for new ones and it was still the same cloud of white smoke when starting,i then changed the glowplugs and still no better.the relay box for the pre heater then died so i changed that still the same.the next thought was the pump timing was out so i advanced it a bit and it was much better but still not perfect i messed around with the timing trying different settings but its not right.the next problem was a head gasket failure or so i thought.i took the head off to find the head had cracked.i took it to a specialist who said it wasnt the original head on the car it was the one from a 405td.i have put the new head on and it still puffs white smoke out when you start it from cold.i have spent hours trying to work out what is wrong and i am convinced it is a compression problem.originaly the pump timing was out and that is worth checking first it helped mine a lot when i advanced it a bit.one of the things i am wondering is there are several head gaskets for these engines.you are supposed to measure up the piston protusion and select the right one.if you put in one wich is to thick you lower the compession,would this be enough to cause the bad starting or am i barking up the wrong tree?i havent done a compression test but i did a leak down test when the head was off and it was fine.
i too have a xantia with the same problem.i bought the car like it thinking it was an injector problem.i changed the injectors for new ones and it was still the same cloud of white smoke when starting,i then changed the glowplugs and still no better.the relay box for the pre heater then died so i changed that still the same.the next thought was the pump timing was out so i advanced it a bit and it was much better but still not perfect i messed around with the timing trying different settings but its not right.the next problem was a head gasket failure or so i thought.i took the head off to find the head had cracked.i took it to a specialist who said it wasnt the original head on the car it was the one from a 405td.i have put the new head on and it still puffs white smoke out when you start it from cold.i have spent hours trying to work out what is wrong and i am convinced it is a compression problem.originaly the pump timing was out and that is worth checking first it helped mine a lot when i advanced it a bit.one of the things i am wondering is there are several head gaskets for these engines.you are supposed to measure up the piston protusion and select the right one.if you put in one wich is to thick you lower the compession,would this be enough to cause the bad starting or am i barking up the wrong tree?i havent done a compression test but i did a leak down test when the head was off and it was fine.
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jeremy
- Posts: 3959
- Joined: 20 Oct 2002, 16:00
- x 2
Thanks Dave for pointing out the difference between the lucas and Bosch pumps.
I agree that this sounds like a glowplug problem as there appears to be nothing wrong with the engine once it is running and from your description of the operation of the system it would seem ripe for failure.
My own limited experience of running a Bx was that when I had bad injectors but good glowplugs it would still start readily but missed a bit and smoked when cold. New injectors meant immediate starting and smooth running (and a head gasket failure after 18 miles!) with little or no smoke on startup.
Jeremy
I agree that this sounds like a glowplug problem as there appears to be nothing wrong with the engine once it is running and from your description of the operation of the system it would seem ripe for failure.
My own limited experience of running a Bx was that when I had bad injectors but good glowplugs it would still start readily but missed a bit and smoked when cold. New injectors meant immediate starting and smooth running (and a head gasket failure after 18 miles!) with little or no smoke on startup.
Jeremy
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Fox
- Posts: 193
- Joined: 12 Oct 2002, 02:59
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KAD
- Posts: 29
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 01:32
My Xantia 1.9 TD (170,000 miles) has a similar starting reluctance. I checked all those points mentioned and it didn,t make much difference. I have a question though, I checked out the fuel tank sender unit the other day and saw that the fuel return pipe goes into the tank there. If you look at it, the return pipe simply drains into the tank, there is no valve at that end. It occured to me that the fuel could run back to the tank if the filler cap was left off for example. Perhaps the fuel tank breather system could have an influence on this 'fuel run back' problem. Has anyone got any thoughts on this? This problem may be perculiar to the Xantia, thus not affecting other cars with same engine... it's just a thought though.
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- x 2
There is no valve because it doesn't need one, the fuel supply system should be totaly sealed from the outside world, and anywhere it isn't is commonly known as a leak.
Only when there is such a leak will any fuel be able to drain back to the tank as air will be pulled into the pipe by the weight of the falling fuel, a leak in the supply pipe would not prevent the engine from starting initialy (this is because a syphon would not be able to get established and pull the fuel out of the pump) but it may cause it to stop once started, depending on how much air has been pulled through. A leak in the return pipe will eventualy prevent starting as this allows a syphon to get going and drain the pump via the supply pipe.
There is probably one exception to this rule, and that would be if the end of the return pipe was not submerged in fuel in the tank.
Even then it would take a long long time for the system to be emptied by fuel syphoning back, it would not come down the return pipe as you might expect but back down the supply pipe, for the simple reason that the supply pipe will be submerged and hold slighlty more fuel because of it, this extra amount of fuel would naturaly be a little heavier than the fuel in the shorter return pipe and so a syphon is set up, allbeit a very slow one.
The fuel in the return pipe will then be suck back up to the front, through the Bosch injection pump (lucas pumps may not be suceptible to this condition) and all the way back to the tank via the supply pipe.
The further forward the fuel gets in the return pipe, the faster the syphon effect works, because the weight of fuel having to be pulled along is being reduced.
Eventualy the return pipe would be empty right up to the pump and the pump then begins to empty and still because of the syphoning effect, but now the syphon is in top gear, no fuel to pull up the return pipe and only air going through the outlet restrictor into the pump.
When the fuel level inside the pump drops below the intake to the high pressure chamber, thats when you begin to have starting problems.
You then have to use the hand primer because the centrifugal lift pump is hopelesly inefficient at starter motor cranking speeds, even more so if all the fuel has been syphoned from the pump and air has got into the lift pump and beyond.
Once the injection pump has been primed (and this should be done with the ignition on to allow trapped air to rise out of the high pressure chamber) normality returns and the engine starts, usualy.
With a lowish amount of fuel in the tank, remove the return pipe from the pump and blow down it, you should hear bubbles being blown ito the tank confirming that the pipe is submerged.
I hear this easily on the ZX when priming after filter changes but have not noticed it on the xantia, will make a point of listening at the next filter change.
Dave
Only when there is such a leak will any fuel be able to drain back to the tank as air will be pulled into the pipe by the weight of the falling fuel, a leak in the supply pipe would not prevent the engine from starting initialy (this is because a syphon would not be able to get established and pull the fuel out of the pump) but it may cause it to stop once started, depending on how much air has been pulled through. A leak in the return pipe will eventualy prevent starting as this allows a syphon to get going and drain the pump via the supply pipe.
There is probably one exception to this rule, and that would be if the end of the return pipe was not submerged in fuel in the tank.
Even then it would take a long long time for the system to be emptied by fuel syphoning back, it would not come down the return pipe as you might expect but back down the supply pipe, for the simple reason that the supply pipe will be submerged and hold slighlty more fuel because of it, this extra amount of fuel would naturaly be a little heavier than the fuel in the shorter return pipe and so a syphon is set up, allbeit a very slow one.
The fuel in the return pipe will then be suck back up to the front, through the Bosch injection pump (lucas pumps may not be suceptible to this condition) and all the way back to the tank via the supply pipe.
The further forward the fuel gets in the return pipe, the faster the syphon effect works, because the weight of fuel having to be pulled along is being reduced.
Eventualy the return pipe would be empty right up to the pump and the pump then begins to empty and still because of the syphoning effect, but now the syphon is in top gear, no fuel to pull up the return pipe and only air going through the outlet restrictor into the pump.
When the fuel level inside the pump drops below the intake to the high pressure chamber, thats when you begin to have starting problems.
You then have to use the hand primer because the centrifugal lift pump is hopelesly inefficient at starter motor cranking speeds, even more so if all the fuel has been syphoned from the pump and air has got into the lift pump and beyond.
Once the injection pump has been primed (and this should be done with the ignition on to allow trapped air to rise out of the high pressure chamber) normality returns and the engine starts, usualy.
With a lowish amount of fuel in the tank, remove the return pipe from the pump and blow down it, you should hear bubbles being blown ito the tank confirming that the pipe is submerged.
I hear this easily on the ZX when priming after filter changes but have not noticed it on the xantia, will make a point of listening at the next filter change.
Dave
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jack.dempsey
- Posts: 116
- Joined: 05 Mar 2003, 17:57
97 Xantia TD has a vacuum operated device on the cold start (bowden cable) device. This is controlled by a solenoid valve, which is operated by the ECU when the engine's up to temp. Sounds to be the wrong way round but as far as I can see the mechanism is sprung loaded to fast idle, the vacuum lowers the engine speed. There's a parallel solenoid device that energises if air con is on - it vents vacuum to atmosphere thus allowing spring to increase speed to fast idle again. Found that both my solenoids are stuck - anyone got these available? However I'm quite sure that this is not the cause of my poor starting (effectively I'm stuck on fast idle).
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Guru Meditation
- Posts: 259
- Joined: 18 Dec 2002, 02:30
There is clearly a band wagon here, that I am jumping on to! I have a '93 zx td with bosch pump and suffer poor cold starting ie ambient temp <10 then to start goes like this-preheat light is on for <10s then cranking. It take 10+ secs of cranking for it to fire up and run, when it does it runs rough for a few seconds and during cranking plus first few seconds of running it produces masses of white smoke (more so when cranking, tails off a couple of seconds after it starts). It is not uncommon to crank for say 15s then stop cranking and the engine will run for a couple of seconds then stop, needing restarting.
In ambient temps of above 15c then it will start fairly easily with just the first preheat with less smoke.
Once it has been started first time it starts sweetly after that with just a second or so of cranking-maybe my problem is glowplug related, I haven't tried changing them yet.
Priming the pump by hand doesn't seem to make much of a perceptible difference.
Guru Meditation.
In ambient temps of above 15c then it will start fairly easily with just the first preheat with less smoke.
Once it has been started first time it starts sweetly after that with just a second or so of cranking-maybe my problem is glowplug related, I haven't tried changing them yet.
Priming the pump by hand doesn't seem to make much of a perceptible difference.
Guru Meditation.
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tomsheppard
- Posts: 1802
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- x 1
Just a thought guys. I read somewhere that this engine has valve clearances that go TIGHT when the engine is cold, potentially making the valves leaky. If the engine needs to be pumped over until there is enough derv around the place to seal in order to get the required compression then this may explain the white smoke, reluctant starting and the number of well used engines that suffer. Might you need a reshim?
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Guru Meditation
- Posts: 259
- Joined: 18 Dec 2002, 02:30
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RichardW
- Forum Treasurer
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- Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
- x 1431
Dave,
Got to disagree with you about leaks on the fuel supply side causing non starting. On my BX TD I managed to fit 2 seals to the top of the fuel filter, and after about 2000 miles they separated and began letting in air. The car was difficult to start (lot of cranking) from cold, but also from hot if it had been stood for more than about 10 minutes - taking 10 - 15s cranking to get it running. Once running it was fine, even at idle. On my Sister's Visa the diaphragm in the primer spilt, and this got to the stage where it was almost impossible to start and would not tick over even if you did get it started. Both engines were fitted with Bosch pumps.
Interestingly my Xantia TD starts fine cold (2 or 3 revolutions then a bit of smoking) but takes 3 - 5 seconds of cranking when hot to start, and needs the heater plugs, even if it's only been stopped for 5 minutes???!!!
Richard
Got to disagree with you about leaks on the fuel supply side causing non starting. On my BX TD I managed to fit 2 seals to the top of the fuel filter, and after about 2000 miles they separated and began letting in air. The car was difficult to start (lot of cranking) from cold, but also from hot if it had been stood for more than about 10 minutes - taking 10 - 15s cranking to get it running. Once running it was fine, even at idle. On my Sister's Visa the diaphragm in the primer spilt, and this got to the stage where it was almost impossible to start and would not tick over even if you did get it started. Both engines were fitted with Bosch pumps.
Interestingly my Xantia TD starts fine cold (2 or 3 revolutions then a bit of smoking) but takes 3 - 5 seconds of cranking when hot to start, and needs the heater plugs, even if it's only been stopped for 5 minutes???!!!
Richard