2.1TD Cambelt Tensioner

[RichardW]

Jim,

I've had a look in BOL and I (think I) understand what's going on with this tensioner. I can't see any way you can avoid taking the engine mount off - you will have to replace the allen bolt anyway, and I can't see you doing that and retaining the snail cam with the mount in place. Once off there should be plenty of room to get in with the stilsons / speed wrench (which looks a handy piece of kit - I'll have to get one of those ). Only other thing I can think of is to try a 10mm socket on the hex for the snail cam - if there is any a/clockwise movement available in the cam, then it might just be enough to take the load off the hex bolt and let you undo it.

No idea how you will go about getting stud 11 out if it proves to be tight (which it probably will - if you have already had to swing on the tensioner nut on the end of it and it didn't unscrew, then the omens are not good ) - short of attacking the tensioner with an angle grinder to get access to the back hex! I wonder how they fit it in the factory??

[CitroJim]

Thanks Richard That's really great!

Yep, the engine mount off is a must. It does not look too tricky although it's a bit different to the 1.9TD as the belt runs between the triangle of vertical studs the other half of the mount bolts to so it may be a case of carefully pulling the cambelt off against the roller tension or cutting the belt so that the mount will come free unless the mount can be teased around the belt. Time wil tell. My only residual worry here is the engine mount bolts are very tight.

The XM BoL gives a much better illustration of the tensioner than the Xantia BoL. In fact, generally the XM BoL covers the 2.1 far better and is recommended for owners of 2.1 (and turbo CT) Xantia owners.

I gave the 10mm hex on the snail cam a good try but it is stuck very fast.

I'm going to order a new tensioner along with a new snail cam and a No.11 stud along with a couple of new Allen bolts and then set to it.

In the XM BoL, it says to use the old two-nut trick to get the No.11 stud out but if it's as tight as the rest, I think it will be angle grinder time

DickieG has already tried and failed to extract one

I shall report fully on the job in due course.

[DickieG]

The problem I had with stud 11 is that there is very little exposed thread to get two nuts onto it to lock it, I used thin nuts and must say I was concerned that I'd end up stripping the thread on the stud . Having thought about it if you could weld a nut onto the end of the stud then maybe,,,,,

As far as an angle grinder then you'll need a few disc's as you'll have to go through the whole of the tensioner first to get to the end of the stud as the tensioner has a small slot through which the stud passes. It holds the tensioner in place by way of two wings, a new stud came as part of the tensioner I bought from GSF.

[RichardW]

It does seem like an arse about face way of attaching the tensioner really! It should, I'd have thought, be possible to lever the tensioner back once the nut on stud 11 is loosened, without touching the snail cam - this will allow you to remove the belt and hence the mount, and then attack the snail cam mount. Thinking about the tensioner, it must be made in two parts - the back plate that is bolted to the engine, and then a sliding plate that holds the tensioner. From memory the photo shows just 'small' lugs restraining the front plate - careful examination of the new one should allow you to see where to cut / bend the lugs to allow the front sliding plate to be removed (probably with the big spring going BOIIIIIINNNNNG ) which should then reveal plenty of stud for attack with speed wrench / stilsons.

[CitroJim]

I got hold of a set of these today and they look just the ticket.



I've tested one on a similar Allen bolt as shown and they appear to get a good grip going.

They have internal tapering spiral flutes.

They're Irwin Bolt-Grips and are actually a lot smaller than they look in the picture. They're a bit pricey but if they do the job..

Irwin seem to have a number of products designed for getting tough nuts and bolts out, including specially shaped Mole Grips.

[RichardW]

I saw those and wondered if they would be any good. Looks like it - added to the shopping list with that small stilson and speed wrench

[CitroJim]

I am delighted to say the Irwin Bolt Grip pictured above did the job perfectly and with very little difficulty although the bolt was mighty tight

It did not yield until the engine mount was removed to give better access. Mr Haynes glibly says, in his BoL, "Remove the engine mount for better access" Clearly he had never done that particular job with the engine in the car. He neglected to say about removing the wing-mounted rubber mount, the rear fork of the mount assembly or the need to remove the Injection Pump sprocket (I kid you not), which requires a special puller.

Such is the task that the full job will be written up in this thread

Not quite the (relatively) simple job it is on a 1.9TD I now see why garages charge the best part of £500 for the whole job

[Citroen Junkie]

I have just had the cylinder head of my 2.1 TD. The camshaft sprocket split in 2 whilst her indoors was driving it. I managed to take the head out with the engine in the car, I had 5 Shredded Wheat for breakfast first. It quite a weight with the Turbo on it. It's all back in the car and runs well, the only trouble is that I have to get the darn Allen bolt out of the Eccentric tension roller. This is more trouble as some bright spark has completely rounded off the internal, as a quick solution, I've purchased a smaller auxiliary belt as a short term measure to get the car MOT'd again. I'll sort out the bolt at my leisure then, but I have notived that it is very "shallow" where the allen key goes. I might have to drill it and sink a splined bit into it to get it to shift.

Is this the best way to procede?

[CitroJim]

Welcome to the forum Junkie

Good work on getting the head off in-situ. The haynes BoL says it cannot be done so to know it can is good news

How much damage did the head suffer when the sprocket broke up?

I have to get the darn Allen bolt out of the Eccentric tension roller

Nasty Knowing how mighty tight they can get, I don't think drilling to accept a bigger Torx Bit will work. It'll just round off again. I'd drill the head right off in stages until the head (and tenisoner) is off and then deal with the stump of the stud that is left. Chances are it'll be fairly loose then and will come out with a pair of small mole grips or Stillsons. You should also be able to get some heat to it to help it along.

If you look around, you may find a small version of the Irwin Bolt Grip as I used on the cam tensioner stud will fit over the stump and draw it out.

EDIT: Before drilling out, have a try with an Impact Driver. I still have two from my Japanese motorcycle days and they still cut the mustard on damaged Posidrive, Torx and Allen bolts where you have sufficient access to swing a 4lb club hammer at the impact driver. It is great for removing the Torx Screws holding brake discs for example.

Failing that, try a big hammer drill with an old masonary bit running backwards with the "hammer" switched on. It works surprisingly effectively.

[deian]

What usually worked for me with nasty bolts and nuts is, plenty of plus gas (overnight is possible), then try it with the engine cold (metal contracts when cold right).

If that still doesn't work, I try to hammer the head inwards with something that will bounce off the head It may send a wave down the threads and crack the loctite enough for you crack the bolts open with a mallet the opening way, shock tactics usually do the trick.

If that fails, I like the blow torch technique, just warm whatever you feel may work, hammer again. Maybe some plus gas (as long as it's not too hot, i think it's flammable), idea is to get plus gas to travel down the gaps when the metal has expanded due to heat.

Failing that, those cool socket things you got look just the job, do you hammer them on a bit for grip and then yank for dear life?

You could weld something onto the bolts as someone suggested, but it's not always an idea due to space etc, the problem is if normal techniques don't work you risk shearing the bolt, drilling is then the final option.

I do agree with others about NOT sending it to the 'professionals'. It's probably professionals that caused you these headaches in the beginning. You are a professional yourself, don't pay for someone else to do it when you know well that you probably know more than them.

Good luck!

[lexi]

I have always got studs and the like out as a last resort with heat or a welder. If nut is rounded or damaged the welder is the best. Even in tight spaces an electrode can be bent to shape to gain access that a mig torch wont get in near. With studs, use a bigger nut and shoot the rod through the hole in nut onto stud.........the heat is going right on and through the stud to break the seal.

In tight spaces a small oxy/acy jewelers torch will heat bolts red hot without spreading a flame to everything else as flame is tiny pencil like.

Appreciate that not everyone has these tools but as they get cheaper and more easily available I would recommend them to anyone.

Of course..........It`s better to be lucky and just need a spanner

[Plumb bob]