Another Car

Ross · Unread post by **Ross** » 06 Jul 2007, 17:49

Now I really need help

The engine is a 1.5 TUD5 diesel unit with a Lucas pump

I have cleaned the block and found the (very well hidden) locking pin hole and identified where the other locking pins (pump and cam) should go
The trouble is as much as I try when the flywheel is locked the other pin holes dont line up - they seem to be about 6mm out on cam and about 3 or 4mm out on the pump.

The BoL states they should all line up before I remove the belt (if I've read it right)

Given I think the timing is out as the engine is noisy do I lock the crank - carefully remove the belt and pin/bolt the cam and pump to as required then proceed with the new belt ? The cam will need to be turned back a fraction and the pump slightly repositioned to facilitate lock-up.

Logic sort of dictates if I believe the timing is out then I am actually trying to lock up an engine where I know the timing is out and I assume the pins wont line up anyway.

If I do remove the belt without locking all the units up how do I know no4 is on its compression stroke - I realise the cam lobes will be "off" the valves but does this only happen in one position when the crankshaft is locked ?

Sorry to keep posting but thanks for the help

Ross

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 06 Jul 2007, 18:02

Hi Ross,

You know you're nearly right on timing as the engine runs

The timing is certainly out though.

Lock the crank and pull off the belt, not worrying too much where the cam and pump are for the moment but make a note of the relative position of the cam and pump timing marks to where they should be.

As you pull the belt off, the cam may move slightly as might the pump, but not by very much at all in my experience.

Now carefull rotate the pump to its correct position and put the pins in to lock it. You'll find the pump will move very easily. Do the same with the cam but you'll find it seems very tight. Take care turning it and don't turn it on it's centre nut as you may over-tighten it. Use some contrivance to turn the sprocket, the belt will do.

When all is properly timed and locked up, put the belt on and apply tension via the tensioner.

Rotate the engine two full revoloutions by hand, feeling for tight spots all the time and STOP if the engine appears to lock up as this may indicate valves are kissing pistons. It is very unlikely as you are very close to right and you're not timing from scratch.

If all Ok, recheck the timing and if it has held, retension the tensioner, rotate two revolutions again, recheck and if all Ok, go for a start.

Hope that make sense Ross. I typed quickly as I'm off out very shortly!

Ross · Unread post by **Ross** » 06 Jul 2007, 18:12

CJ you are a gem - if you need a tow or a beer in sunny (or not) Southend let me know M8
Thanks

Ross · Unread post by **Ross** » 07 Jul 2007, 20:31

Nearing the end now - everything is back together and the timing has been checked twice and each time it all lines up and it started first time - all seems ok although there is a knock from the exhaust pipe - the passenger window has fallen down and the brakes need sorting - usual stuff.

The car still sounds a little noisy and a little underpowered but my main car is a Xantia 1.9 TD VSX so its a bit hard to make a value judgement.

I have added a good dose of injector cleaner to the fuel and assume it might get quieter yet.

Are there any other checks I can make to make sure this is running as it should be - Does anyone know how long it takes for the injector cleaner to work as if it is still noisy I have only two options - have the timing checked professionally to ensure its actually spot on (I have checked them twice and they are spot on as far as I can see) and/or change the injectors with a set fom the breakers (I have disconnected them individually and there is no difference to the sound of the engine)

For those who have folowed this the pump was exactly one tooth out and the cam sprocket was out a bit more
The tensioner was missing a substantial number of ball bearings on the outer side and was grating
There was no sign of antifreeze in the cooling system
Best of all the water pump had welded itself to the block and was eventually chiseled out with crowbars and a 24" cold chisel - could not believe how much time and effort it took.

Still the project is moving forward

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 08 Jul 2007, 07:09

Ross, that is brilliant news

I think you'll find it is running fine now

Don't expect a 1.5 NA Diesel to be a massive powerhouse though. Comparasons to a 1.9TD are not very vaild.

A small Normally Aspirated diesel will sound noisier and more "dieseliy" than a TD due to the higher compression ratio it uses. It'll also have a more pronounced "diesel knock"

It won't have anything like the power of a TD. I once owned a 1.9 405D and a 1.9 405TD at the same time and the difference the turbo made was very significant, quieter, more power, more refinement, more eager to rev and so on.

The 1.8 NA XUD in Dad's 205D feels really noisy and gutless up against my TD Xantia but runs perfectly, starts instantly, never smokes and runs forever on a tank of diesel.

A small NA diesel will never win a traffic light grand prix. It is much more the tortoise than the hare

So, if yours starts instantly (the smaller the diesel the healthier they need to be compression and timing-wise to start easily), does not smoke and returns a good mileage from a tank of diesel then it is in fine fettle.

Smoke is a good test of the injectors. If you're not smoking then chances are, they are in reasonably good condition.

To check the pump timing is a job requiring a dial gauge (DTI) and a special probe tool on the Lucas pump. Any Diesel Specialist will be able to do it for you and Haynes explain it very well in their Pug XU Diesel BoL (it is exactly the same process for a TUD). Again though, by what you say, and as long as someone has not disturbed the pump then chances are it is fine.

A dose of injector cleaner is a good idea. It seems to work but it'll take more or less a tankful to do it. An "Italian Decoke" will do it some good as well Ross.

These engines enjoy running hard and full throttle is their mormal working condition

You'll be surprised at their top speed, even if it take a while to wind them up there!

Ross · Unread post by **Ross** » 08 Jul 2007, 11:01

And for the last time (I hear you say - lol)

Taken the car for a test ride 20 mies and happily sits at seventy with no apparent problems - no smoke anywhere or under any driving condition - no smoke on start up or over run

Engine still sounds a little loud with a far more pronounced diesel knock than I thought it would be - also seems a little flat in terms of torque.

Reckon I'll have it checked over by a spacialist diesel fitter given the amount of time I now have invested in the car - just to make sure (this is my first timing belt replacement)

Brakes steering suspension checks next - so I'll leave you all in peace for a while

Thanks to one and all with a special mention to Citrojim

Ros

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 08 Jul 2007, 11:15

Ross -

This little diesel still have some kind of coldstart injection timing modifier ?
It sounds to your description that any such device never reaches its hot running state.
Anyway - its always my favorite on noisy diesels, since I've seen this failure so often

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 08 Jul 2007, 14:27

AndersDK wrote:Ross -

This little diesel still have some kind of coldstart injection timing modifier ?
It sounds to your description that any such device never reaches its hot running state.
Anyway - its always my favorite on noisy diesels, since I've seen this failure so often

Good thinking Anders

Dead easy to check on a Lucas pump. When hot the cable from the waxstat to the pump cold start control lever should be slack, allowing the lever to travel right back toward the emergency stop lever. The cable should pull tight when the engine is stone-cold, giving a fast idle.

Ross,

Don't stop posting now! Keep us all in the picture with your progress! I have thoroughly enjoyed this topic and I'm very happy to see a successful outcome

Brian UK · Unread post by **Brian UK** » 09 Jul 2007, 00:04

But the waxstat will only adjust the tickover speed. It doesn't alter the timing.
If you are feeling brave, you can check the timing yourself. I was told this by a diesel injection specialist some years back (Watson Diesel now in Wimbledon, and the guy who did all the diesel stuff for Lucas in Kingston).
All you need to do is mark the flange on the pump, then slacken the flange bolts off a bit and rotate the pump slightly. If it is too retarded you will get white smoke, if too advanced you will hear the knock. You just have to get it in the middle. (Or return it to the original setting).
Of course, the dial guage method is far more accurate.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 09 Jul 2007, 00:10

Brian -

Does the waxstat alter the accelerator setting on a 1.5D ?
On XU diesels it does alter the injection timing ONLY.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 09 Jul 2007, 06:28

Brian,

You're right, I was well wrong. Something was nagging me about it when posting as well

The Lucas cold start lever only increases idle speed. I should know, I've had them apart

It must be the Bosch pump then Anders, that adjusts timing, although this is done electrically on my TD Xantia.

I like the sound of your timing method Brian

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 09 Jul 2007, 13:40

Hmmmm...

More variants around than I knew of then

On my oldie BX-td (1.764L turbo) w/Lucas-CAV mechanical pump, the waxstat operates an electric switch for a - on pump front mounted - actuator coil.
If that coil was to modify the throttle stop or fuel volume for raised idle - I could certainly think of a lot easier & cheaper & more reliable method doing this

That darned waxstat operated switch has been the cause to much entertainment for me

On my S-O-L's BX-d (1.905L non turbo) w/Bosch mechanical pump, the waxstat operates an auxillary lever on the rear of the pump. This has nothing to do with the fuel volume or accelerator stop, but purely the injection timing.

What do you say guys - am I completely way off the track here

Brian UK · Unread post by **Brian UK** » 09 Jul 2007, 18:08

On the pump on the 1.5 TUD the waxstat is just a fast idle.

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 09 Jul 2007, 19:15

Ok thanks Brian -

added to to my (very long) list behind my ears

Ross · Unread post by **Ross** » 20 Jul 2007, 21:21

well finally found out the problem and it would seem"Brian UK" had the answer (I think) in a previous post.

In good faith I had locked everything up and fitted the new water pump and timing belt and no matter how many times I checked the timing it was always right

Found a brilliant Diesel Shop in Dagenham Essex with an owner for whom nothing seemed too much trouble
Called in on the off-chance and it would appear thelock up position on the pump was quite a few degrees out and as a result I would never of got it right with pins etc.

The Owner said he wouldnt let me drive it home and proceeded to spend two hours timing up and adjusting the sprockets and belts by hand - I had only popped in and had no cash so was a bit worried about paying the bill

After several final adjustments the engine sounded great

The Bill ? ----------- £30 dropped in over the next week or so when I next passed

I will be in there first thing Monday with the cash (and a bit more).

The car now runs quieter and pulls well - still got a few thinds to do - valve clearances (as I can now hear the noise) - and general servicing

Would recommend this place to anyone as it was a pleasant afternoon and from the equipment in the workshop I dont think there is anything they dont deal with in terms of diesels and fuelling

Will post address and tel. no next week.