HDi Reliability

Unread post by **Peter.N.** » 20 Jun 2007, 00:08

Look on the 'Parkers' website and read the 'owners reviews' on the C5 and Ford Mondeo which has a similar engine. Some say they are the best thing since sliced bread and others that wouldn't have another one at any price. I think that the advice that has been given you so far has been sound. The early ones did suffer with faulty fuel lift pumps which caused the injection system to self destruct, also some reviews cite the dual mass flywheel as being potentially troublesome and expensive! I believe one of the clutch manufacturers makes a solid replacement. But, if you look at the car cales websites, there are plenty about that have covered high mileages without serious problems.

Yes, injectors are expensive, but you will very often find secondhand or even new ones at much reduced prices on ebay. My main gripe is the electronics, but that applies to most if not all common rail engines. If a repair is done they very often need reprogramming, and that's not generally a DIY job.

For the present I am sticking with my mechanically governed XMs

davek-uk · Unread post by **davek-uk** » 20 Jun 2007, 16:25

The chap next door has a X-Reg Xantia HDi Estate. He had his tank lift pump go and destruct his diesel pump - and it cost him a pretty penny to get it done! Some months after that, he had poor running and his garage (the local Cit dealers, I think) said that the injectors were damaged - quoting him in the region of £1500 to put right! He took it to an independent and had a sensor changed for under £20 and all was well!!!! As for his mileage I guess it's around the 100k, nothing dramatic.

This tank lift pump problem and the complex electronics & sensors has put me off the HDi. I like everything home serviceable - that way I know what's done and that it's done right! Oh, and they still don't like veg oil...

Unread post by **lolingram** » 20 Jun 2007, 16:35

But in the long run, it is the way we will have to go...

This tank lift pump problem and the complex electronics & sensors has put me off the HDi. I like everything home serviceable - that way I know what's done and that it's done right! Oh, and they still don't like veg oil...

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 20 Jun 2007, 16:54

At least from this thread we have learned that the actual electronics of the HDi don't give problems (yet) and provided normal care and maintenance is carried out they seem to be be very long-lived. If you replace the lift pump as a precaution and get rid of the dual mass flywheel, you're safe it appears.

If the electronics are made to the same high standard as the other PSA electronics then we will have no worries just yet.

Who makes the electronics? Bosch?

Although I still don't fully trust vehicle electronics (I'm an electrnics engineer

) When was the last time you heard of a Citroen Engine ECU or HA ECU failing? It is very rare just yet and if all else fails, Mosser will repair them for us

I'd now buy an HDi with absolute and total confidence and then look out for a set of spare ECUs and sensors for it

njr · Unread post by **njr** » 20 Jun 2007, 22:02

The HDi is currently at 81k miles and apart from the accumulator sphere and the cam belt hasnt been touched.

Neil

Brian UK · Unread post by **Brian UK** » 21 Jun 2007, 10:20

citrojim wrote:If the electronics are made to the same high standard as the other PSA electronics then we will have no worries just yet.

Who makes the electronics? Bosch?

Not sure that everyone would agree with your statement.

ECU/injection is by Bosch or Siemens. The Siemens systems don't have the fuel lift pump.

Unread post by **CitroJim** » 21 Jun 2007, 12:30

Brian UK wrote:Not sure that everyone would agree with your statement.

The statement referred to the internal construction of ECUs only and not the bits of wire that tie them all togehter

We all know PSA electrics

howiedean · Unread post by **howiedean** » 22 Jun 2007, 15:53

davek-uk wrote:The chap next door has a X-Reg Xantia HDi Estate. He had his tank lift pump go and destruct his diesel pump - and it cost him a pretty penny to get it done! Some months after that, he had poor running and his garage (the local Cit dealers, I think) said that the injectors were damaged - quoting him in the region of £1500 to put right! He took it to an independent and had a sensor changed for under £20 and all was well!!!! As for his mileage I guess it's around the 100k, nothing dramatic.

This tank lift pump problem and the complex electronics & sensors has put me off the HDi. I like everything home serviceable - that way I know what's done and that it's done right! Oh, and they still don't like veg oil...

Yes it can be very expensive although there are stacks of hdi spares available now on ebay or your local scrappy.

Regards

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 22 Jun 2007, 15:59

Can someone please explain to me how the lift pump going can take out the IP?

nick · Unread post by **nick** » 22 Jun 2007, 16:10

The theory is that the lift pump starts to disintegrate into small metal fragments as it fails. These fragments get into the fuel filter, which due to either a design fault, or just the sheer amount of metal fragments blocking it, allow these bits through into the high pressure pump where they cause it to wear. The high pressure pump can also start to shed metal pieces which then clog the injectors.

Xaccers · Unread post by **Xaccers** » 22 Jun 2007, 16:17

I was going to say, isn't there a fuel filter to stop these parts?

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 22 Jun 2007, 18:14

The lift pump would be a pretty standard low pressure fuel pump - possibly immersed in the tank. I've never heard they would disintegrate into that small particles not trapped by a good filter.

I would believe its the fuel filter itself that is the main problem.

It cant be that much of a problem. The fuel filter would be no more than approx £10 for the standard alu/tin can filters used in pressurised fuel systems. Cut up the filter and have a look on the filter internals.
I had such a filter with rattling internals when removed. I never thought of cutting it up for inspection though

I'd say adding extra filters can only do better ...

nick · Unread post by **nick** » 22 Jun 2007, 21:12

There seem to be 2 different common explanations for the metal bits getting past the filter. One is that the filter housing was not properly designed to work under pressure, so with the pressure from the lift pump the body of the housing swells, allowing dirt to get around the side of the element and bypass it.
The other is that when changing the filter element some garages are not cleaning the filter housing correctly & allowing dirt from the filter bowl to get into the rest of the filter housing, eventually being drawn into the high pressure pump. Therefore, they recommend changing the entire filter housing, rather than just the element itself.

On the other hand, I have known Peugeot trained technicians claim that both of the above scenarios are virtually impossible!!

A further complication is that some HDi 90's with the Siemens fuel system also suffer with metal particles in the fuel filter & apparent damage to the high pressure pump - but there's no electric lift pump on those to disintegrate, and the filter is not working under pressure either!

Slyman · Unread post by **Slyman** » 24 Jun 2007, 07:13

Just changed the filter on my ZX and that had metal particles in the housing. These metal frgments must come from some other source, filling station pumps ?

nick · Unread post by **nick** » 24 Jun 2007, 10:05

Yes, now you mention it I can remember finding small metal fragments in the filter bowl of my XUD engined Xantia. My first thought was that they could have come from the injector pump, gone back to the tank via the leakoff/return pipes then got drawn back to the filter, but I had that car for over 6 years and it was still running fine when I sold it last year.

I think your suggestion of filling station pumps as the source is quite likely.