Using an XUD for power generation..

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 26 Feb 2007, 19:35

I dont think the 33KVA figure is the norm of of peak power consumption on estates.
Remember that you have the power split up in 3 phases.

In my house I have 3 x 25Amp inlet (safety) fuses at the fuse/distributor panel, and I believe the chord for my house is secured by 3 x 50Amp fuses out the street distributor box.
Remember those ratings are not actually for consumption - but for securing the cable, distributor panel and installation.

The factual max peak power would be the fuse panel inlet fuse rating times the local voltage rating - pr phase.
In my case 3phases X 25Amps x 230Volts = 17.25KVA max peak power consumption.

I'd say you would do fine limiting the max peak electric power consumption to 10KVA - or less. Stoves can be gas driven much cheaper than by mains power. House & water heating with either gas or heating oil likewise cheaper than using mains power. And you dont need much fantasy to limit your power consumption. Much of our electricity bill is for lazy daily comfort only - not necessities

In all fairness : the project is not that 'impossible' 8)

KP · Unread post by KP » 26 Feb 2007, 22:18

Ok ive had to re-estimate and the bulk of the cost of this is going to be the deep cycle battery packs. i reckon at least 80-90of these for a decent amount of supply, the more the merrier.

Looking into the lister engines they are all rated at silly low poers like 6hp and the like but i cant find torque figures so im thinking that the XUD would easily cope with the amount needed from it even at lower revs and then if there is more power required it can kick the revs up a notch and come on boost, thus generating more heat as well to heat the house from the turbo heat(much hotter than normal exhaust temps IIRC) and thus help fire the processing plant up a bit more as well....

another idea popped into my head that the fire place could be used to assist in the heating of the water and central heating as well

howiedean · Unread post by **howiedean** » 27 Feb 2007, 19:57

uhn113x wrote:33kW at 240v? 33000/240 = 137.5 amps - the service fuse in most houses is 60 amps.

You would have to have close control of the 50Hz mains frequency as well, so you cannot control the output by throttling the engine back, so that really means that you cannot feed the alternator directly for output.

I see a load of car batteries, DC generator and crystal controlled inverter.

IMHO, not worth the hassle.

I was thinking about that as well. Aircraft engines have a constant speed control unit driving generators, that sorts out the frequency side and the power is controled by the amount of torque fed to the generator. (feedback from voltage regulators)
I'm guessing that domestic type generators will have a crude version of that explained above, is that correct?
The reason is, that if you could produce electricity at home and take care of the waste heat as required (heat exchangers and radiators) then it might be possible to sell the extra electricity you produce to the National grid.
Another idea to think about?

regards

David W · Unread post by **David W** » 27 Feb 2007, 20:24

**Howie have you seen I'm trying to get hold of you about your Xantia gearbox?**

The guy next door to me has a very old generator set that I think will do welding or produce 240v mains. Might be ex-military. It had something like a Austin 7 or old BMC engine but he has replaced that with a 1.7 diesel BX engine. That runs withour problems on heating oil.

David

KP · Unread post by KP » 28 Feb 2007, 00:13

if its on all the time then the IP may take veg in some mixture

Ive looked on the net but can find no price at how the grid pay for buying electric off people so i guess ill have to try and hunt out a number to call, and not the ghostbusters number

One idea bouted to me that might be a bit illegal

was to pump it back thru my box and thus the meter would count backwards lol! get my metre back to 0 and keep doing it to keep it there lol!

uhn113x · Unread post by **uhn113x** » 28 Feb 2007, 07:25

KP
I think if the Grid did buy power, there would be one heck of a lot of red tape to go through to ensure that voltage and frequency standards were adhered to.

As to your "metre" [sic], you cannot make it run backwards by passing current through it - it is AC! Older meters use a shaded pole induction disk motor which can only run one way, and I am sure the newer digital ones will only measure the power (V x A) in the same way.

You may reduce the current a bit, but I don't think they will have internet connection in one of Her Majesty's hotels, so we will not see you for a while!

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 28 Feb 2007, 08:34

I have heard many years ago that old fashioned rotating disc meters would run backwards if a 3 phase motor was connected. In the 80's there were a number of frauds concerning the connection of 'Black Boxes' which could be purchased - to the supply. - All highly illegal and of course in this country treated far more seriously than crimes of violence.

I think there is a recognised system for selling surplus electricity from wind turbines, water wheels etc to the Electricity suppliers - this was gone into in some detail by Dick Strawbridge in his series of TV programs showing his attempts at going green - which included the construction of a waterwheel to generate electricity. I'm sure a search of the internet will provide information.

howiedean · Unread post by **howiedean** » 28 Feb 2007, 20:01

uhn113x wrote:KP
I think if the Grid did buy power, there would be one heck of a lot of red tape to go through to ensure that voltage and frequency standards were adhered to.
As to your "metre" [sic], you cannot make it run backwards by passing current through it - it is AC! Older meters use a shaded pole induction disk motor which can only run one way, and I am sure the newer digital ones will only measure the power (V x A) in the same way.

You may reduce the current a bit, but I don't think they will have internet connection in one of Her Majesty's hotels, so we will not see you for a while!

Yes it can be done but looks complicated!!!
http://www.actionrenewables.org/generating/overview.htm

I guess it might be worth a look at you never know there is probably a grant to had somewhere.

Unread post by **504** » 28 Feb 2007, 23:29

Just a thought but have you explored marine kits for XUD engines, so using the coolant to heat exchange your hot water supply. The Peugeot XD series of engines are more popular for industrial use too, even Volvo manufactured the Peugeot engine as a 6 cylinder version for boats. Poke around in a few Leyland Daf 400 vans and find yourself a 2.5 lump (peugeot XD3).

KP · Unread post by KP » 01 Mar 2007, 02:09

Hi 504,

Yeah i have considering using a water to water heat exchange system to heat the hot water system in the house as i think if done well and insulater from the outside with the pipes deep down enough they would keep a lot of heat in and enough to heat the home and if not then there is always an electric boost as well

KP · Unread post by KP » 01 Mar 2007, 02:29

Howie that site makes for a good read but most of the forms and stuff apply only to NI and not england/Mainland UK

I guess the laziest option is to have a generator that kicks out loads of juice during the day back into the grid and then we take the power as and when we need it from the grid and then i use the savings to develop the cooling and heat exchange systems to benefit the house and garden more as initially i think it would go in stages like this.

1. generate power back into grid with no storage and use coolant to heat up processing plant. Power mainly generated during un-occupied hours to keep intrusion down from the genny.

2. Install panels and turbine or two to help generate back into the grid at night time.

3. Heat exchange system rigged up to use the heat from the engine during the day and keep electric booster for evening kick in as the genny could kick in as the house wakes up and thus have even more online time and heat the house thru the day and thus have it warm for the houses second waking phase of the day

4. Energy banks slowly integrated into the house, possibly using the hydrogen given off during charging to help fuel the engine(Simply having a vent in and vent out with the vent out being part of the inlet for the engine)

5. Generator eventually becomes a secondary small income for the house as the energy banked from solar and wind and stored up would allow the house to be kept running for the few hours of the day where consumption spikes massively. never mind things like holidays and the like where all 3 sources would be feeding back into the grid and summertime where the feed back into the grid would be big from the PV as well as the generator.

I reckon this could be done slowly over a 2 year period, the big bit is the money for the storage and possibly getting bits certified or proper electricians to do them, which i may be able to source cheaper than average adding into the fact ill be saving a lot of money on labour and the Waste veggie would mean servicing and upkeep of the engine would be my biggest bills in future years.

If the engine ran 24x7 and i serviced it every 1000hrs then id be servicing it every 41days or 1 1/3months.
However think it would more likely run from say 6.30am-5.30pm which gives it 11hours per day which would mean every 3months it gets serviced. now thats assuming on average i run it between 2500-3000revs. that should keep it on boost and in a good power band area.

Only once ive run the engine like this will i be able to work out how much fuel it uses on average for every hour it runs but i think over 1000hrs it would use about 600litres or so of WVO.... that means i dont have to do loads of processing but need to be taking in at least 150litres of waste veg a week...not a mean feat i may add. i know i could possibly get this done in one trip as i know if i use KTC 20litre tubs i can get at least 120litres in the boot of a xantia, maybe 150 at a push but im sure a better solution will come to mind for me but for the meantime the plastic cartens last well and it would keep within the theme of re-using wasted containers as well im sure

uhn113x · Unread post by **uhn113x** » 06 Mar 2007, 12:06

I think there quite a few urban myths about this subject. It is certainly possible to slow an induction disk motor down, or even stop it, but I cannot see how it will run backwards, as the forward rotation is caused by physical properties.
Left to its own devices, it will only start if given a spin in either direction; to make it start, half on one of the polepieces has a copper ring on it to delay the magnetic field so it arrives every 10 msec later than the other half does.
To make it go the other way, it would be necessary to put the shading ring on the other side of the polepiece.

One urban myth was that you could stop a meter with a strong magnet. Not true - it would have to go around the disc to do that, and the glass was in the way!

A man from Stockport was charged in the 1970s for making and supplying "black boxes" to slow the meter down.
One way this could be done by using a low voltage autotransformer - say 6v - plugged into a socket in the house, and one side of the secondary connected to a pin on the cable into the meter. This will pass current through the meter out of phase with the current through the items in the house, and partially cancel this out.

Don't try this at home!

It wasn't me, either.

jeremy wrote:I have heard many years ago that old fashioned rotating disc meters would run backwards if a 3 phase motor was connected. In the 80's there were a number of frauds concerning the connection of 'Black Boxes' which could be purchased - to the supply. - All highly illegal and of course in this country treated far more seriously than crimes of violence.

dan_the_v8man · Unread post by **dan_the_v8man** » 23 Apr 2007, 17:52

AndersDK wrote:I dont think the 33KVA figure is the norm of of peak power consumption on estates.
Remember that you have the power split up in 3 phases.

In my house I have 3 x 25Amp inlet (safety) fuses at the fuse/distributor panel, and I believe the chord for my house is secured by 3 x 50Amp fuses out the street distributor box.
Remember those ratings are not actually for consumption - but for securing the cable, distributor panel and installation.

The factual max peak power would be the fuse panel inlet fuse rating times the local voltage rating - pr phase.
In my case 3phases X 25Amps x 230Volts = 17.25KVA max peak power consumption.

I'd say you would do fine limiting the max peak electric power consumption to 10KVA - or less. Stoves can be gas driven much cheaper than by mains power. House & water heating with either gas or heating oil likewise cheaper than using mains power. And you dont need much fantasy to limit your power consumption. Much of our electricity bill is for lazy daily comfort only - not necessities

In all fairness : the project is not that 'impossible' 8)

so in denmark you have a 3 phase supply into your homes? thats bloody brilliant!!!

unfortunatly we're stuck with single phase

AndersDK · Unread post by **AndersDK** » 24 Apr 2007, 01:58

Single phase installations are obsolete in DK.
Though you can of course still find it in old houses and apartments which have not yet been rebuilt to modern standards.

Reason is the widespread use of 3ph electric stoves with ovens.
Laundry machines used to be 3ph consuming devices too, but they are more or less replaced by single phase powered devices.
Some houses and a few apartments are heated by electric ovens. Its way too expensive compared to central heating from a city heating plant. I use the good old heating oil central heating system, as my estate is distant from earthgas or heating plant systems.

Earthgas is only used for central heating. Some cooking nerds have earthgas stoves. Gas is considered outdated and highly dangerous here.

rossnunn · Unread post by **rossnunn** » 24 Apr 2007, 12:46

I've not read all the replys so excuse if these has been said before.

We live out in the middle of nowhere & have been thinking the same thing, however using the standard XUD, standard cooling etc, mounted in a box with a grille at one end & a exhaust outlet at the other (much like it is under the bonnet), we'd then replace all the ancillary belt driven devices with small generators. The engine revs would be permanently set at the maximum torque range for the engine & left to run.
The electronics side would work in that any extra power that was produced would be sent back into the grid (thus getting a rebate off the bill)
The engine would be serviced just like a standard XUD & would run on drum barrels of diesel & veg oil fed through a Y in the pipe. The barrels could be changed in a similar way to the big red gas bottles do which feed our house.

However it would not be running 24/7 it would only be used as a backup device in the event of power failure or maybe run once a week to help keep the elecy bills down.