Xud engine blowing white smoke and lots of it!!!

Unread post by **RichardW** » 31 Jan 2007, 12:39

So it was OK when you took it in, now it won't turn over. And it's NOT their fault..... er, so what didn't they do it yesterday then...?

You can't have sticking injectors on a mechanical injection diesel - they're not like petrol inejctors where they are opened and closed with a constant feed pressure - they only open when the injection pump raises the pressure sufficiently, then they close again when the injection pump cuts the pressure. They're bullshitting you.

I think it's time to get your hands dirty and get the top covers off and have a look at the belt timing. You might need to take the glow plugs out and see if anything comes out if you try and turn it over (by hand not on the starter!).

TBH though I think they've buggered it up beyond redemption now. Probably going to need a replacement lump, then issue a small claims summons

Pity you're not nearer, I'd come round and have a look and write you an engineer's report, and give you an invoice for several 00 £ so you had some grounds to go on.

KevMayer · Unread post by **KevMayer** » 31 Jan 2007, 21:10

I've been thinking about your latest situation and have had a thought.

Could it be possible that the pump timing is correct but they've got two of the injector pipes crossed ?

Is it possible that they've connected the diesel feed pipes to the wrong pump outlet connections on two cylinders ?

If so, it would run on 2 cylinders and the other two would kick out unburned fuel and fill up with diesel to give you what they call hydraulic lock.

I'm clutching at straws. This may not be physically possible, but somebody here will tell us either way.

Hope this helps.

cheers, Kev

slim123 · Unread post by **slim123** » 31 Jan 2007, 21:24

I thought about that one Kev, but why would anybody remove the diesel pipes to do a cam belt job??

But I would suspect that they have done something wrong rather than it simply failed after the work.

My only suggestion left for Caveman is, if you cannot do this yourself, take it to another garage to get the belt timing checked, they should charge an hours labour or less.

Regards
Slim.

reblack68 · Unread post by **reblack68** » 31 Jan 2007, 21:38

I think it's pretty clear that this garage has somehow managed to make a hash of your car.

I think you need to go to your local Trading Standards, tell them what you suspect and ask them how to proceed. Everything you do from now on needs to be documented. This could potentially be quite expensive to sort out and it's only fair that the garage do what it takes to put it right. Even if there is no damage there will be a fair bit of workshop time involved.

It's possible that the garage is completely innocent but you need to find out for sure.

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 31 Jan 2007, 21:47

Things always sound better when you say them twice!

slim123 · Unread post by **slim123** » 31 Jan 2007, 22:11

Are you an AA or RAC member??

I am sure that if you are, they would do an independent and unbiased report. This would give you some quite heafty ammo to get it sorted.

Just an idea!

Regards
Slim.

fatbugger · Unread post by **fatbugger** » 01 Feb 2007, 16:26

Hi there
Just been reading this post over on the Peugeot forum and noticed a previous posting from you on the 20th Jan.

caveman_si
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 158
Location: Liverpool
Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: 406 1.9td Aux belt issues

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Started doing an oil change and flush just after lunch today and its all gone very very wrong. Well not the oil change not even I could mess that up.

Droped the old oil put in the flushing stuff as per instructions. Got out my cleaning stuff to clean the insides and startered her up.
After about 5 mins of running she started sounding funny like all clatterty and thumpy for a second and then it went quiet and then it happened again. Images of things going badly wrong flashed through my mind so i dived through the car (I was in the boot) and turned it off.

Lifting the bonet I was faced with an aux belt that some how had jummped and started to shred itself!
Happy I am not but I am pleased its nothing else.
The cambelt is fine and as far as i can tell everything else is too. Except the aircon pump as its got shreded belt around it but theat should be find once cleared.

So auxbelts any hints and tips or does the haynes cover it in enough detail??

So much for Exam revision for monday
_________________
406 lx 1.9td estate

Whilst I can sympathise and hope it is the fault of the garage you appear to have had suspicious noises before it even got to the garage.
Sorry to be negative but it is worth bearing in mind.

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 01 Feb 2007, 18:20

Why did you flush the engine in the first place - its not normally a recommended procedure - and what did you use?

tomsheppard · Unread post by **tomsheppard** » 01 Feb 2007, 19:11

The engine is not "Hydraulically locked" That is Bollocks. I suspect (as do most of the tech savvy reading this) that the monkeys have fxxked up the cam timing because they couldn't get the pump timing right. To prove it, take a 22mm socket and attempt to rotate the engine backwards (anticlockwise,) at the crankshaft pulley. If the engine moves at all then there is hope for it and I can guide you through what to do next. Do this first though, 'cos it is tedious to explain the procedure for getting it right.
Do not operate the starter motor, The valves are probably in contact with the pistons right now. Resetting it takes a little while but it is perfectly straightforward and it is possible that they havent actually broken anything.

caveman_si · Unread post by **caveman_si** » 02 Feb 2007, 15:17

Mike

Whilst I can sympathise and hope it is the fault of the garage you appear to have had suspicious noises before it even got to the garage.
Sorry to be negative but it is worth bearing in mind.

The noise that you refer to and the one I mentioned in that was the belt jumping off the pully and shreading itsself. Once the engine was stopped and the frayed belt removed the car started fine and sounded sweet as nut. Exactly the same as it always sounded. When i put on a replacement belt to ensure everything was working fine it still sounded perfect but showed up that the auto tensioner had gone.

Jeremy true engine flushing isnt normally recommended but I was advised by a mechanic that it my car would benefit from one. It previous owners hadnt driven it much recently and it had mayo in the filter, due to all the short journeys. Just a standard flush was used no revs just engine idling.

Tom Cheers i'll try that at the weekend and get back to you for the full details if everything goes right!!!

caveman_si · Unread post by **caveman_si** » 05 Feb 2007, 15:19

Think i might have found the problem

inlet side of the turbo not looking too healthy. Looks like something has been sucked up and chewed in there. When I get it off the car fingers crossed i'll find what caused it. Not found anything missing when I started to disassemble it and the air filter is in place and fine so not chance of coming in that way. So looks like the garage may have dropped something in but no idea what or how? Anyway just need to crack the glowplugs/injectors and check that it turns over and finger crossed it does. Then its just a case of getting on and getting it replaced.

Unread post by **RichardW** » 05 Feb 2007, 16:06

Ouch, that looks nasty. Presumably it's ingested a bolt or nut. Trouble is, whatever went into the vanes, has a good chance that it came out the other side and went in the engine

Wonder if that is why it now won't turn over as what ever it was has now jammed the engine somehow?

I used to work with a chap who had a 600cc racing bike (he looked like death warmed up, but that didn't seem to stop him

) which he had dropped one day on the track. Got back on, and it seemed OK, apart from a small vibration. Kept riding, then a short while later it lost power and vibrated a lot. He got the head off and found it had dropped a valve. This had rattled round inside the cylinder stamping circles all over the top of the piston before it eventually broke off just above the head, allowing the head to turn sideways, and stamp deep cuts into the piston and cylinder head. The piston he kept on his desk as a souveneir was quite a sight!

Doesn't help with your engine, but might bring a smile....

jeremy · Unread post by **jeremy** » 05 Feb 2007, 17:53

Looks like the classic mechanics habit of putting things down wherever is convenient - rather than in trays! I don't know if you have to remove a turbo pipe to get at the cam belt on your car but if it was detached that could be where it got in.

The valve opening isn't that large so not much of a bolt would get past it but I suppose something could jam a valve open - when it would hit the piston.

Not the sort of fault that features on fault finding charts!

Unread post by **SteveG** » 05 Feb 2007, 22:05

jeremy wrote:The valve opening isn't that large so not much of a bolt would get past it but I suppose something could jam a valve open - when it would hit the piston.

I had the bottom of a valve guide drop off in my 2 litre Omega. Sounded like a bag of nails until it jammed the inlet valve open and stopped the piston dead in it's tracks.

My tame mechanic fixed it up for me and I sold the car rather quickly

slim123 · Unread post by **slim123** » 05 Feb 2007, 22:13

I realy dont know what the best form of approach is, but from the piccy, we were all wrong and it is a definate turbo failure!!!

But like others I would suspect that this certainly is not a natural failure. Something, left by someone has gone through here, that much is obvious.

I guess that showing the garage the turbo and talking calmly to them, may get you somewhere. But I suspect that a full denial is all that you will get and how can you prove it was them? In short, you can't.

Regards
Slim