Engine Swop Auto To Manual

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 30 Sep 2006, 21:34

Although I've only had personal experience of the boggo Xantia autoboxes,
I think the flywheel will be the only difference on the two engines so should
be interchangeable.

You did all right there in the auction - lucky I've got no room available
at the moment... that's NO money!

I've not heard of auto adaptive boxes packing in so would be very
interested in where you get with the repair - would be a very nice car
when fixed.

Wearing my mercenary hat, IF you want to scrap the bodyshell for the
engine as you mentioned drop me a line - I know someone who needs
a bonnet, front bumper, nearside wing and I'm trying to find a nearside
rear door!!

Andrew

acrowot · Unread post by **acrowot** » 30 Sep 2006, 22:03

Hi Andmcit, Nicely spotted, the rest of the car is not as good as the seller said it was, hence no feedback left for him, I do not like to leave negative as youn only get it in return. The bonnet has a dint in it half way down its length on the nearside on the edge, it is also slightly raised at this point, it looks like it has been shut when a tool or other implement has been left under it and then hit with a fist to try to close it. The radio has been removed and replaced at some point and the radio is loose and the surround is missing. The airbag warning is flashing, it loos as if the steering wheel has possibly been removed at some time as the shroud is loose. The button for the drivers side electric window has been extensively used as top is white, too many presses, this makes me wonder about the 90 odd thousand miles on the clock (taxi), but the engine is really sweet. There are also one or two car park dints on it, what maybe a leak on the HP pump. One of the rear doorcards is damaged , looks like a burn about 2 inches in diameter, the back of the rear seats as seen from the boot is torn. All in all not perfect but for £170.00 I am happy, as I said it is just something to mess about with. It does have a towbar fitted and I wonder if that is the reason the gearbox is faulty, I can not see any additional oil cooler.

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 30 Sep 2006, 22:24

Know exactly what you mean about feedback - the tit for tat isn't very clever
- always worth letting it go, although I think ebay are looking at genuine
concerns from buyers who leave negative with a seller response blocked
if there are legitimate grounds. Don't see how this can work as they work on
the adage that there is always a right of reply.

I see what you mean about taxi vibes - a few are getting pushed out through
ebay with high mileage once they've gone to seed.

The only possible reason I can see for the running or not running scenario can
be fluid pressure for the torque convertor - the usual Xm and Xantia failure is
the wearing of the linings for the different banded gears with the primary pick
up 'going' for the forward gears and the reverse still being OK as it sees less
wear. The auto adaptive does use a damn sight more electronics from what
I'm led to believe and Citroen aren't exactly masters at this aspect...

Andrew

BTW, what's your paint code!

acrowot · Unread post by **acrowot** » 30 Sep 2006, 23:43

Hi Andrew, All gears are the same including reverse, the paint code is KNCB.

John

Unread post by **alan s** » 01 Oct 2006, 00:10

This is sounding very much like what happens to BX autos.
The symptom of losing forward drive can be caused through low fluid that's for certain, but I'd be wanting to see signs of leaking of ATF before I took that all that seriously.
Intake filter we have found on a few causing problems. This is accessed by removing the base pan and when removed, you will see (on a BX anyway) to the right, a plate held in place by a dozen small torx headed bolts. These have to be removed to gain acess to the filter. NOTE: these are various lengths and have to go back where they came from, so devise a system as you remove them of identifying them for the reassembly.
Remove the filter which is made from similar material to an LHM filter, wash in petrol and blow clean and dry. Upon reassembly, refil with the correct grade ATF. Do not take any notice of anyone who tells you Dexron 111 will do the job if it is not recommended for that transmission; it will wreck it.
From memory, the transmission takes a fluid that has an Esso part number.
On BXs, this loss of forward drive is a problem we're currently working on trying to solve, as it seems to happen to some of them too, mainly ones that have been poisoned on Dex3 but have then reverted to the correct fluid. I find that if driven around town in 3rd gear, the problem never arises, it seems to be involved with 4th for some reason.
IIRC, the AL4 operates on solenoids whereas the 4HP14 and 20 don't, and in their cases we have found that if the car is driven in "A" and gets into 4th gear, it can stall when it stops just like a manual that hasn't had the clutch pressed in prior to stopping. It doesn't do this if driven in 3rd. Then when it stalls, when restarted, it has lost all forward drive. When slowing down, if the accelerator is "blipped" a couple of times, more often than not, the car will be felt to downchange and in those cases, it stops quite normally and will not lose forward drive.
It seems to happen on some when cold, on others when hot so temp doesn't seem to be a constant factor. If left sit for a while, it will drive off as normal. As has been stated, it fells like it needs time to drain the fluid back to the pump.
I have been trying to get someone out here to "donate" a stuffed transmission to us so we can try to discover the cause but they seem more inclined to do conversions to manual or buy second hand boxes then dump the old one than to help us find the cause; meanwhile the auto rebuilders keep getting away with charging A$2600 - A$4500 to redo them and we suspect it is as Anders mentioned, possibly just a valve block problem and I'll go as far to suggest, possibly only a sticking one at that causing the BX problems.
So I'd suggest try the filter clean for starters and in the process change as much of the fluid as you can. Also if it can be done, try the 3rd gear around town option and the "blipping" just out of curiosity as it's something we've been on for quite a while and all info is good info in our books.
Remember: when changing the fluid, it may say the box has a capacity of 6 litres, but on a drain and refill, only about 2.5 litres drains out so you will need to check the level and adjust accordingly rather than guess it.

Alan S

acrowot · Unread post by **acrowot** » 01 Oct 2006, 14:35

Hi Alan s, Thanks for your informative reply,I have not removed the under engine cover yet so I have not examined for any leaks yet, it is probably wishful thinking that it is only low fluid causing the problem, but I live in hope. I will certainly clean the filter if I can find it. The lack of drive is evident in all gears including reverse, I will not be able to try the 3rd. gear scenario as the car will only drive a few yards at a time.

Unread post by **alan s** » 01 Oct 2006, 21:30

If it's all gears including reverse, IMO you'll end up with one of three scenarios.

Low fluid level

Total pump failure

Totally blocked filter

and I suspect in that order of probability.

Keep us informed as I have collected a fairly large dossier of complaints and fixes for these French autos over the past couple of years and am hopeful of eventually ridding them of this "black art" reputation they now seem to have.

Alan S

acrowot · Unread post by **acrowot** » 01 Oct 2006, 23:03

Well I have made a start and things do not look promising, yhe under engine cover is off and it is covered in a whole pile of oily crud, I think LHM and engine oil ( possiblly from rocker cover and maybe vacuum pump gasket. I have run the engine up to temp ( I do not have any fluid to put in yet) and removed the level check plug from the center of the drain plug and fluid comes out, so it does not look as if the level is low. This fluid is black and it stinks quite badly, maybe contaminated with bits of clutch linings. I can smell this fluid now and I am sat in my house, I have scrubbed up and I always wear surgical gloves when I am working on cars. Alan S, I cannot see the plate that you refer to for the location of the filter, it must be in a different place on this AL4 gearbox. All in all things are not looking promising, I am contemplating taking the box out and stripping it but I have no diagrams to help with the strip down, if it was the old type box with no electronics I would be in with a good chance, but with all these electronic controls on this box I am not too sure.

John

andmcit · Unread post by **andmcit** » 02 Oct 2006, 00:08

Sounds like hours of fun for those dark cold winter nights!

Coincidentally, I sure the inventor of the automatic gearbox went doo-lally
shortly after completing the design - nice urban myth perhaps, and I'm not
sure if it's true but it's something that stuck in my mind along the way from
reading Clarkson et al...

Andrew

ekaftan · Unread post by **ekaftan** » 02 Oct 2006, 02:05

alan s wrote:TI find that if driven around town in 3rd gear, the problem never arises, it seems to be involved with 4th for some reason.

If you look at a valve diagram for that transmission (ZF4HP14) you'll quickly see why. 1st and 2nd gear use only the 'A' clutch to transfer power from the torque converter to the planetary gears. 3rd uses the 'A' and the 'E' clutch. 4th gear uses just the 'E' clutch.

Down shifting from 4th to 3rd involves releasing 'C'' brake-clutch and applying the 'A' clutch under great stress.

Using it in '3' around town saves a lot of 3-4 4-3 shifts as you pass around 40mph, and wear to the 'A' clutch is greatly reduced.

(I'm on my 3rd card with 4HP14s and have had to fix only one of them. I bought the last two cars only after I was sure the transmissions had been recently replaced or overhauled in a reputable shop not long ago.