Xantia suspension

[RichardW]

"Perhaps you could get a good one from a scrappy.... "

Trouble is most of them are likely to be in the same state. See this Excusive HDi on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... :B:EF:UK:1

Sunk rear, and high front look familiar???

There used to a be rumour among the XM fraternity that they could be repaired, and there was an O-ring for something else that fitted. Not heard much about it recently though. Wonder why they are so prone to failure, and it's the front ones that go - the front and rear units are identical (ah, now is there a plan - get a rear one and fit it to the front?)

[Mandrake]

"Perhaps you could get a good one from a scrappy.... "

Trouble is most of them are likely to be in the same state.

Some of them perhaps, but not all. So if the price was really cheap you could get more than one and find one that was good from testing.

There used to a be rumour among the XM fraternity that they could be repaired, and there was an O-ring for something else that fitted. Not heard much about it recently though.

Oh, they're definately repairable. The trouble is getting them apart without breaking them, as they seem to have something like locktite on the internal thread that holds them together.

I was unable to dissasemble mine without applying more torque than I thought was safe. When I get the new one and fit it I'll have a more vigorous go at taking apart the old one, knowing that I won't be putting the car off the road if I do break it...if it can be taken apart without breaking I'm 95% sure that they can be fixed as good as new just by replacing the o-rings and cleaning out any grit trapped inside...

Wonder why they are so prone to failure, and it's the front ones that go - the front and rear units are identical (ah, now is there a plan - get a rear one and fit it to the front?)

Yes, front and rear are identical, and yes, it is the front one on mine that leaks. The rear one has virtually no leakage.

The only two differences I can see is that the front one is mounted vertically, while the rear one is horizontal, and the front one probably gets very hot from engine bay heat, especially seeing as it is wedged in between the engine and the radiator....perhaps years of heat perishes the internal o-ring ? If it is heat fatigue perhaps a higher temperature grade of o-ring can be obtained to prevent it failing so fast next time ?

I think you've hit on a plan here - go to a scrappy and get the electrovalve from the REAR of the car, and you've got a better than average chance that its ok

Regards,
Simon

[fridgedoc]

Hey you two, stop nicking my thread................

Now that I have replaced the accumulator and carried out Cit whatever!
to clear air from system and done the sit in boot with very little lift, I now need to look for air leaks ... any pointers for these leaks, I remember seeing somewhere on this site and can I find the post, of cause NOT, there are certain pipes that tend to leak at given points, any idea where these points are?????

Just a thought, is there a clever dicky in South London / Surrey area that could help? I can sort your A/C in exchange!!!!!!!
I have very little knowledge on Citroen's but learning quick, I could be entirely wrong with my car and it might not be as faulty as I feel it is, maybe some kind person could give it a test drive for me?
The only problem seems to be the time taken for the pump to cut in and out ie. 12 sec's although a one time it was 45 sec's.

I've had two good tyres fitted to the front's and that has improved things overall, the brakes seem good, I could get the sphere's off the scrapper, the only reason the car was scrapped, one of the hydraulic pipes was leaking, apart from that the car was OK (used by one of the guys in the yard so he just got another car!) so sphere's should be good, and he is hanging onto it for me, the car is the same colour as mine but I don't need any of the panels!

6 DAYS AND COUNTING !!!!!!!!!

[AndersDK]

Hi Stephen -

If you believe air is getting in to the system - you should take a good look on the large dia rubber hose from reservoir to pump (largest dia on the reservoir).
It tends to leak on the studs if hoseclamps are not tight. Also the rubber may be perished over the run pf te hose. The old trick is to bend the hose sharply and look for surface cracking. Sometímes the hose simply snaps before you even have a chance looking for anything.

As this hose is the feed to the pump - its under suction and therefore vaccum. Leaks then rarely seen at all.
As an emergency repair you can use a suitable dia PVC (garden) hose.
But first point is to ensure hose is tight over the studs.

[fridgedoc]

Thanks Anders, will check it out

[fridgedoc]

Hi Anders & all

eventually got around to checking hoses, found suspect leaks, removed hoses cut back approx 1cm remade fixings, started car, took about 10 sec's for light to go out, did Citaerobics (yippee I remembered what it was called) about 12 times, turned off left for about 30 min's, started car took about 5 for light to go out, pump seemed to be running, also seemed to be very quiet, which tells me it was pumping against a high pressure, once car was at correct height I could hardly hear the clicking if at all even when listening under the bonnet, I'm hoping that's a good sign, it seemed to be about 70 sec's but it was very hard to hear it cutting in/out so I could be wrong, I am taking the car out today for a run to see what the ride is like, will try and see how the clicking is.

Re reading the previous posts above RichardW states pressures of 170 Bar, that's 2500psi wow!!!!!!!! is it really that high!!!!!!!! frightening.

4 Days and counting

[Mandrake]

Hi Anders & all

eventually got around to checking hoses, found suspect leaks, removed hoses cut back approx 1cm remade fixings, started car, took about 10 sec's for light to go out, did Citaerobics (yippee I remembered what it was called) about 12 times, turned off left for about 30 min's, started car took about 5 for light to go out, pump seemed to be running, also seemed to be very quiet, which tells me it was pumping against a high pressure, once car was at correct height I could hardly hear the clicking if at all even when listening under the bonnet, I'm hoping that's a good sign, it seemed to be about 70 sec's but it was very hard to hear it cutting in/out so I could be wrong, I am taking the car out today for a run to see what the ride is like, will try and see how the clicking is.

That sounds good, the pump should be pretty quiet (I can't hear my pump at all, except when I'm turning the steering while stationary) and the regulator click shouldn't be too loud either.

I find it easier to listen for the pressure regulator click with the bonnet closed, and standing or crouching near the front bumper. The bonnet cuts out a lot of the random noises like tappets, making the regulator click more obvious. 70 seconds sounds fine.

Re reading the previous posts above RichardW states pressures of 170 Bar, that's 2500psi wow!!!!!!!! is it really that high!!!!!!!! frightening.

Yes, it really is 170 bars, which is par for the course for a hydraulic system...if you want really high pressures try the pressure of an HDi diesel injector!

Regards,
Simon

[deian]

which is..?

the injection moulder at work runs at about 6000psi, but the hydraulic rams for that are insanely chunky, and the hydraulic motor is about the size of sulo bin, so say the citroen xantia has 170bar is again insane consiering you got 2000psi (ish) working against nitrogen filled sphere's, who's have though the french could do this. repsssect! (ali-g style)

[Mandrake]

The injectors on HDi engines operate between 1300 and 1700 bars.... yes bars, I didn't mix it up with psi

As for the suspension, remember that the smaller the diameter of the pistons the more pressure it takes to lift a given weight. They are between 35mm and 40mm for the ones that use arms, and 22mm (I believe) for the McPherson strut type.

Also in the case of the rear suspension (and the front on older models such as the CX) there is arm leverage of at least 3 to 1 working against the hydraulics, which requires even more pressure.

Higher pressures allow the use of smaller hydraulic rams, and improve the response times of things like the brakes.

However 170 bars is the maximum system pressure, and is only in the suspension when you set the height fully up. (Although it's full pressure at the accumulator sphere all the time)

At normal ride height on an unladden car you would expect the front suspension pressure to be about 60% of the maximum possible, and rear only about 30%. (So the rear suspension can carry nearly 3 times its unladden weight, maximum, so at a guess, around 600Kg of payload weight on a Xantia)

Regards,
Simon

[Kowalski]

which is..?

About 20,000 psi for first generation, 25k psi for latest generation but these are both low compared to the quoted 30k psi pressure that VW quotes for its PD injection system (which incidentally they appear to be phasing out!)

[fridgedoc]

Well Gentlemen you amaze me with your knowledge..........

Thank you for enlightening me, hydraulics is not my best subject, mind you if I had stopped and thought for a minute a lot of it would have made sense, you've got a bloody big motor car bouncing up and down against a pressurised oil system, so the pressures have got to be high, just how high is what threw me, but it all adds up now......Thanks, .... I'm used to Fridge pressures about 450 psig max, lower on car a/c and that can be nasty if a hose gives.

I did not get a chance to take the car for a run yesterday, today is going to be the day, which is better really as I will be able to monitor the car from a day of rest, see how long it takes from a cold start, light to go out, raise to normal height etc and then the ride, trying to remember back to the old Citroen I had many years ago, I must say, have not enjoyed playing with a car as much as I have up to now, for years.

I still have my Honda Concerto (H reg) and to be honest it has been a good car but I had a Honda engineer look after it and not a lot went wrong with it apart from consumables, and it has taken us to Poitiers (France) and back about 5 times now with NO problems, but she is getting a little tired in the auto-gearbox dept and this LHD cit came up, had all the s**t from the English guy about how good a car it was etc and to cut a long story short he saw me coming, but I've got the car now and overall it's not that bad, but it's not a 1997 as he said but a 1994 (did not under stand the French documents) never mind I'm happy with it and hopefully it will be easier to drive in France.

Hey guys just thought .... the car at the breakers is a "L" reg vsx would the engine be OK for my car?????? as the millage is a lot lower and I'm sure I could get it for a silly price, what would I have to check, when I looked a the engine the pump was fitted lower than my car but I don't think it had a/c, whats your thoughts Please.

Sorry to ramble on but I thought you may be interested.

Thanks again for all your help and a GREAT forum

[andmcit]

Hey guys just thought .... the car at the breakers is a "L" reg vsx would the engine be OK for my car?????? as the millage is a lot lower and I'm sure I could get it for a silly price, what would I have to check, when I looked a the engine the pump was fitted lower than my car but I don't think it had a/c, whats your thoughts Please.

Unless you're expecting to remove the engine in yours to change the clutch sometime soon, you'd be better spending money on regular new oil & filer changes! The VSX parcel shelf would be worth having with it's rear blinds as IIRC it was determined your car is an LX - the blinds will be handy for sun protection when you're in France!

Other VSX goodies? Front foglights, body colour coded mirrors, alloys...

Andrew

[fridgedoc]

Hi Andrew

How right you are about the parcel shelf, got that straight away, sadly no alloys, guess they where removed long ago and would have been sold separately, wing mirrors electric and NOT colour code but I've fitted the N/S one on the car, that is LHD N/S, the one on the right as mine was damaged beyond repair, I can live with moving it by hand, the reasoning about the engine was my car has done 250000km how well it was maintained I do not know but I believe it was serviced regularly as I don't think the guy had a clue in what to do, the first thing I did was change the oil and filter, the oil was not bad at all at there was lots of service stickers about, but still lots of kms and I can get the complete engine assembly inc gearbox for about £20/25 so do I get it or not, as I hope to have this car for a few years, firstly backwards and forwards 6/8 times in the next 12 months and then France permanently, and I have a very LARGE garage in France, remember, the price of 2nd hand cars in France is a lot higher than the UK, so I feel 2nd hand parts will be higher too, so having the engine as a spare could be handy.

[andmcit]

I can get the complete engine assembly inc gearbox for about £20/25 so do I get it or not, .... I have a very LARGE garage in France...so having the engine as a spare could be handy.

For that kind of money you really cannot go wrong! There's the inconvenience of moving and storing it, sure, but if the gearbox is included that'd be worth the expenditure & inconvenience alone, without the BONUS of an engine with a believed working cylinder head...

If it truly is COMPLETE with an all-in-one price for the WHOLE lot INCLUDING ancilliaries, the hydraulic pump, starter, alternator etc etc give you excellent economies of scale and these WILL be very handy on their own in the future!

The thing to check here mind is the mileage this has all covered!

Incidentally, the VSX instrument cluster has an extra gauge for oil temp as well as the normal water one. I've not fitted a spare VSX one I've got myself to see if the wiring is there in the loom, but for the sort of money this guy sounds like he's charging it'd be worth trying!

Happy shopping!

Allt he best, Andrew

[fridgedoc]

Yes it is a good price, he's a very old friend that's the reason it's so cheap
but will it be OK for my actual car?

Thanks