bad starting xantia (sorry guys, truly!)

manic_man · Unread post by **manic_man** » 25 Oct 2004, 18:56

I know, I know, same old same old [:p]
My 1997 xantia 1.9TD has never started well, when i got it about a year ago i replace the glow plugs for Beru ones (it had a set of dodgy bosche ones in it) which helped the usual symptoms: clouds of white smoke, firing on less than 4 cylinders, very lumpy idle, all sorted by waiting for about 20 seconds anr evving lightly. Eventually I tried to trace it to an air leak and found the final injectors little nipple stop-end thingummy had split, nice citroen garage gave me one for free and things got much much better, inf act things have been perfect ever since i did that about 5 months ago..
Now i drove about 60 miles over saturday and the car sat all day sunday, came to start it this morning and boy did it chug [:(] worst its ever been, took about 3 or 4 minutes of gentle revving to clear it, and even then it was still mis firing every now and again at idle for another new minutes.
I'm thinking air leak again, but this time quite a bad one, but i ont have a clue where to look and the most likely culprits (other than the injector excess fuel pipes) if i prime the handbulb it doesnt even stay hard long enough for me to get in the car and start her up to see if it helps! Theres no obvious squeeling noise or bubbling in the engine bay when i prime the bulb (how i found the last leak) as far as i can tell the fuel filters lid is on tight (though ill check the seal tonight when i have access to a socket set) Where else do i need to pay attention to, that engine is like a labyrinth....
Also worth noting, whereas when i first got it if you got it going, it would then take the (seems about usual) 8 odd hours before it would be effected again. Well i just started it during my lunch break, 4 hours later and it was just as bad as this morning [xx(]
Im desperate here, i can see me coming to it soon and it not starting at all.. which would be a nightmare add infinitum

thanks guys [:I]

Kowalski · Unread post by **Kowalski** » 25 Oct 2004, 20:49

Have you checked the pipes too / from the fuel tank, where they go down the back of the engine? If you follow the pipe with the fuel bulb down, it joins with the fuel return pipe and they have some bends molded into them.
These are prone to cracking around their bends which can cause air to leak in (or diesel to leak out) of the pipes. I had one of these pipes crack and leak, I didn't get an air leak I got diesel on the floor.

manic_man · Unread post by **manic_man** » 25 Oct 2004, 21:06

No, see thats the kind of thing im looking for thanks kowalski

i just struggle to follow the piping in the engine bay... i'll take a look when i get home (although it'll be dark.... typical)
Still gotta check the fuel filter housing as well, i'm not wrong in saying theres no danger of anything drastic happening if i just take the lid off and check the seal am i?

Kowalski · Unread post by **Kowalski** » 25 Oct 2004, 21:20

The pipe I was on about goes from the top of the engine down the back and there is a joint down there, the dealers stock. If you have a feel about you may get diesel on your fingers which would confirm that the pipe is split / leaking.
The other thing you might want to look at is the fuel filter lid, they are rather notorious for causing air leaks.

manic_man · Unread post by **manic_man** » 26 Oct 2004, 17:52

checked fuel filter lid last night, seemed ok, it was too dark to take a proper look at the pipe, so im going to check that during my lunch break.
I duno, it seems to me perhaps one of my glowplugs ahs gone doolally as it was so sudden, literally, was fine, left for a day and its been bad ever since. Admitedly I do still have two Bosch plugs in there and 2 Beru one's..... The previous owner had had these replaced like 4k miles before i bought it so i was relucatant to replace them as somebody gave me the two Beru plusg for free, in hindshgith this was a mistake, so I have 4 new Beru plusg winging their way to me from GSF, gonna change em neway even if that isn't the cause (looking forward to doing the one behind the pump again [xx(])
cheers

Kowalski · Unread post by **Kowalski** » 26 Oct 2004, 18:19

You've already replaced the blanking spill pipe on the injectors, it might be worth having a look at the little rubber splill pipes too.
My Dad had an air leak on his Jeep Cherokee TD (VM Diesel engine with Bosch injection pump) and one of those spill pipes had split where it goes onto the injector, new pipe meant it started properly.

manic_man · Unread post by **manic_man** » 26 Oct 2004, 18:38

yeah ive checked all those, although one isnt fully pushed down, which i'll do tonight (the one behind the fuel pump suprisingly, really well placed component that...) an interesting thing I just found there though was that where the pipe that comes from the primer bulb goes into the fuel filter it really isnt well clipped on at all. The metal clip can be spun (with a litle effort) around the pipe and theres about half a cm left for it to be pushed on. I'll tighten all that up tonight when i get hoe and have some pliers handy.
Other than that, if i still have the problem i hope the glowplugs sort it cos i cant find anything else thats a likely culprit in all the piping i can see
also, as a by the by, does anybody know what the large(ish) pipe that comes out of the centre of the rocker cover is for? Im guessing oil, as i always thought my rocker cover leaked and was gonna replace the gasket, but looking at it i think its this pipe thats leaking slightly, looking at the drip pattern down the head.
Cheers

Kowalski · Unread post by **Kowalski** » 26 Oct 2004, 18:50

That pipe is a breather, probably an oil return pipe too.
Dunno why they had to have an external pipe and couldn't just have a hole in the block....
I've had oil on top of the centre two injectors on my 95 Xantia. Tightening the hoseclip reduced it a bit, tightening the rocker cover bolts a little reduced it a bit more.

manic_man · Unread post by **manic_man** » 26 Oct 2004, 19:04

yeah im loathe to touch the rocker bolts in case they have a torque value (im sure they probably do) and i exceed it and they snap... theres no major leak, just seepage as you say, and it doesnt use any oil between changes (well not much anyway) my only major problem is this starting... before i changed the plugs when i first got it it would sometimes not start at all, and you porbably know how hard a diesel is to start once its flooded... i used to spend 5 minutes cranking it over sometimes...
2 plugs were gone then, and had been for a while, so if these pipes dont cure it, im thinking perhaps 1 is gone or maybe the beru's dont like working with the Bosch's, im not even positive the Bosch's are definately the correct ones for the car, they might not even be the extended glow types the TD needs...
urghh its a horrible problem this and next to the clutch clip seems to be the most common fault on these TD xantia's

Unread post by **smashymike** » 26 Oct 2004, 21:27

Just about to start my great glowplug swapout so am trailing your post for any hint/tips!! My 95N Xantia TD has exactly the same symptoms as yours, ok one morning, dying a death the next. Problem is i'm no mechanic but have decided no i the time to learn, so armed with all the bits for a full service i'm ready to go. Glowplugs next otherwise the neighbours are gonna go barmy soon! Then onto accy sphere, then abs sensor, then hydraflush. NOt altogether suer if that'sthe correct order to do thins, anyone?? So Manicman, get moving with your plugs and let me know how difficult/easy it is, includingthe one which everyone seems to avoid, you know which one i mean!! Ta.

manic_man · Unread post by **manic_man** » 27 Oct 2004, 02:56

urghh well that was annoying
Im now covered in cuts and bruises, and 3 hours shorter orf life, ive managed to loose a screwdrive bit in the engine somewhere AND a metal jubilee clip

(pipe now restrained with a very strong cable tie....)
All i have managed to work out is that if it IS an airleak then when i prime the bulb there is a slight squeeking type noise coming from the fuel pump area, I cannot pin point it more than that, I have tightene everything in the area up as much as i can, all pipes visiaully look ok (although as i was working in the dark, and will always have to due to work and only had my carparks lighting to go by.. i could be wrong on that front)
Could anybody tell me, is it normal for their to be a slight squeeking noise from these engines from god knows where as you prime the fuel system? ALSO as an interesting aside, if i warm it up now an dont touch the bulb it'll be fine for a good 4 or so hours. However if i warm it up, switch it off, prime the bulb a few times, things get lumpy for a few seconds again. Figure that one out.
Im going to change the plugs anyway as having two different brands in there cant help, but i really dont think its the root of my problem.
Any thoughts guys?

ghostrider · Unread post by **ghostrider** » 27 Oct 2004, 03:52

The squeaking could just be the non return valve in the hand pump. I dont know the xantia that well yet but on the BX the fuel pipes were metal and had a nasty habit of developing pinholes that were not big enough to let fuel out but would let air in, no drips on the ground or even damp patches on the pipes.... I would have thought that if the plugs were at fault it would always start badly, slightly better if the weather is warm
Pete
________
WHOLESALE VAPORIZERS

manic_man · Unread post by **manic_man** » 27 Oct 2004, 04:10

the noise is definately coming from around the pump area (handbulb is quite a distance away)
Most of the fuel hoses seem to be rubber, im not ruling out a split, but it did get much worse than it ever has been all of a sudden, just makes me wonder if say the bosch's have been kinda working and then have finally just gone...
Just have to hope that screwdriver bit and that jubilee clip dont do anything bad, as i cannot for the life of me find either of em

Dontcha just hate it when you spend so long and learn or achieve absolutely nothing, if anything you go backwards....