Hi all
As a Christmas present for the old girl (and my bum!) I am trying to fit new spheres all round to my 1995 S2 2.5TD Saloon XM. I have looked at the spheres I have been given.
The front centre sphere on the car is stamped Citroen (double chevrons) with the number "96131131" or maybe "96181131". Next line "4-148". Large "DT" next to it (to right of).
The one I have got from GSF is same diameter but larger volume by about 2-3 cm. in height. Is this right? The "original" (on the car) is exactly the same size as any other sphere on the car (front/rear or rear centre sphere). The extra size fits in with the Russek manual spec. as it should be 500cc rather than 400cc for the rest of the car.
As regards locations of front and rear centre spheres. Are they physically about central from each pair corner spheres ? The front centre is parallel to the front suframe about central between the front wheels?
The rear centre sphere is about central between the rear wheels above the torsion bar rear suspension and rear box?
Where is the anti-sink sphere as I cannot see it for reference ? (I do not intend to change as I have heard it means dropping the rear subframe - will get done on Monday).
Thanks in advance.
Andrew
XM Series 2 Spheres
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alexx
- Posts: 462
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 02:42
Hm...
96181131 is front hydractive sphere from Xantia. 450 ccm, 75 bar, multilayer membrane, central bore 1.1 mm. 4-148 is the date of production (148-th day of '94). Code for XM should be 75520529 - 500 ccm, 70 bar, central bore 1.25 mm.
I think there could be a simple explanation for this mismatch - you have Hydractive 2 system fitted, while spheres you ordered are for Hydractive 1.
96181131 is front hydractive sphere from Xantia. 450 ccm, 75 bar, multilayer membrane, central bore 1.1 mm. 4-148 is the date of production (148-th day of '94). Code for XM should be 75520529 - 500 ccm, 70 bar, central bore 1.25 mm.
I think there could be a simple explanation for this mismatch - you have Hydractive 2 system fitted, while spheres you ordered are for Hydractive 1.
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first-things-first
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 13 Oct 2002, 04:20
Hi Alexx
Sorry for late reply and rudeness at not thanking you for the answer.
You say the sphere I took off (the "original" sphere) was incorrect for the car? This has got me wondering. As I said earlier this spehere has a bigger bulb than original (which was exactly like all others).
At the moment the ride is much better than before. Much more compliant. Car floats and dips at both ends where before it was rigid.
Back end is bouncy and firms up very noticeably when valve clicks in (engine off). Front end bounces but not to same degree as back and does not seem so much harder (would need to check again to be sure).
Could a wrong size front centre sphere cause a hard front end (asuming everything else is right? It certainly seems to jiggle at times (noticeable on bends and under accleration when front lifts). This maybe Hydractive at work? And maybe front struts that stick (I will try leak off test again as per AndersDK at weekend).
Spheres that have been changed GSF numbers (all Amtex) are :
Front sphere - N45324 (96065505)
Front centre sphere - N45322 (75520295)
Rear sphere - N45352 (95051827)
Rear centre sphere - N45354 (96045530)
These all OK for car (1995 S2 XM Saloon Hydractive 2 2.5TD engine)?
Also thanks to AndersDK for Citraerobics. Took an age to do (did 6 up and downs to be sure). The steering (although pump had been changed) was still giving problems when parking (lack of assistance). Now gone
And car is much fitter now
Thanks in advance
Andrew
Sorry for late reply and rudeness at not thanking you for the answer.
You say the sphere I took off (the "original" sphere) was incorrect for the car? This has got me wondering. As I said earlier this spehere has a bigger bulb than original (which was exactly like all others).
At the moment the ride is much better than before. Much more compliant. Car floats and dips at both ends where before it was rigid.
Back end is bouncy and firms up very noticeably when valve clicks in (engine off). Front end bounces but not to same degree as back and does not seem so much harder (would need to check again to be sure).
Could a wrong size front centre sphere cause a hard front end (asuming everything else is right? It certainly seems to jiggle at times (noticeable on bends and under accleration when front lifts). This maybe Hydractive at work? And maybe front struts that stick (I will try leak off test again as per AndersDK at weekend).
Spheres that have been changed GSF numbers (all Amtex) are :
Front sphere - N45324 (96065505)
Front centre sphere - N45322 (75520295)
Rear sphere - N45352 (95051827)
Rear centre sphere - N45354 (96045530)
These all OK for car (1995 S2 XM Saloon Hydractive 2 2.5TD engine)?
Also thanks to AndersDK for Citraerobics. Took an age to do (did 6 up and downs to be sure). The steering (although pump had been changed) was still giving problems when parking (lack of assistance). Now gone
And car is much fitter now Thanks in advance
Andrew
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alexx
- Posts: 462
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 02:42
Well...
Code of the original middle sphere is the same as in hydractive Xantia. Unfortunately, no info about spheres for XM with HA2 is available to me, but since it's in fact the same system as in Xantia, it's possible that both cars share the same middle spheres.
Do you remember, were both middle spheres (old and new one) without damper valve, like accumulator sphere? If they were, there won't be almost any difference in the car's behaviour, because spring rate of both spheres is almost equal:
500 * 70 / (450 * 75) = 1.037
... meaning that HA1 sphere is only 4% softer than HA2, which is totally unimportant. Only - HA1 sphere won't last as long as HA2 would, because it hasn't multilayer membrane.
It's perfectly normal that rear end of the car feels twice softer than the front in soft mode, because it's twice lighter. If you fully load the car (with 5 occupants and some luggage), you will notice that there won't be significant difference anymore - unlike in the cars with springs, spring rates of the suspension is rising with the load here!
In hard mode, in all HA2 Xantias I tested before buying this (non-hydractive) one, both ends of the car felt rigid. But if you sat on the bumper, it would dive under the weight, but very slowly - within several seconds. It's because of very small central bores in spheres' damper valves.
Codes for corner spheres you specified are OK, but also for hydractive I (no info for HA2 available). Since HA1 and HA2 work on the same principle, I think they should be fine - it's the same car anyway, although they might be tuned a bit differently than HA2 corner spheres.
Code of the original middle sphere is the same as in hydractive Xantia. Unfortunately, no info about spheres for XM with HA2 is available to me, but since it's in fact the same system as in Xantia, it's possible that both cars share the same middle spheres.
Do you remember, were both middle spheres (old and new one) without damper valve, like accumulator sphere? If they were, there won't be almost any difference in the car's behaviour, because spring rate of both spheres is almost equal:
500 * 70 / (450 * 75) = 1.037
... meaning that HA1 sphere is only 4% softer than HA2, which is totally unimportant. Only - HA1 sphere won't last as long as HA2 would, because it hasn't multilayer membrane.
It's perfectly normal that rear end of the car feels twice softer than the front in soft mode, because it's twice lighter. If you fully load the car (with 5 occupants and some luggage), you will notice that there won't be significant difference anymore - unlike in the cars with springs, spring rates of the suspension is rising with the load here!
In hard mode, in all HA2 Xantias I tested before buying this (non-hydractive) one, both ends of the car felt rigid. But if you sat on the bumper, it would dive under the weight, but very slowly - within several seconds. It's because of very small central bores in spheres' damper valves.
Codes for corner spheres you specified are OK, but also for hydractive I (no info for HA2 available). Since HA1 and HA2 work on the same principle, I think they should be fine - it's the same car anyway, although they might be tuned a bit differently than HA2 corner spheres.
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first-things-first
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 13 Oct 2002, 04:20
Hi Alexx
Thanks for your reply.
The accumulator was not changed by me so I cannot say what the bore looked like.
The middle spheres (front and rear) were different to corner spheres. The corner spheres have some sort of valve on whereas the centre spheres were machined from a wider bore at the screw end to a much finer point in the sphere.
Thanks for the further information. It makes sense as I would suppose the front end should be more rigid as it has to support much more weight.
Cheers
Andrew
Thanks for your reply.
The accumulator was not changed by me so I cannot say what the bore looked like.
The middle spheres (front and rear) were different to corner spheres. The corner spheres have some sort of valve on whereas the centre spheres were machined from a wider bore at the screw end to a much finer point in the sphere.
Thanks for the further information. It makes sense as I would suppose the front end should be more rigid as it has to support much more weight.
Cheers
Andrew
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alexx
- Posts: 462
- Joined: 19 Nov 2002, 02:42
Thx for the reply.
Accumulator sphere has opening about 2.5 cm (or so) in diameter, then it is machined to about 0.5 cm orifice. Small part of membrane is visible through the orifice.
According to your description, HA middle spheres are very similar - damper valve is not on the sphere, but in the stiffness regulator, where the sphere is mounted.
There's one thing I'm interested in. You said that 'wide bore on the sphere is machined to a much finer point'. Was this point about 0.5 cm in diameter (like in the accu sphere), or it was close to 1 mm. I'm asking this because middle sphere also have 'central bore diameter' declared, and I'm not sure is this diameter of that orifice in the sphere, or it's a bore on a damper valve, situated in a stiffness regulator.
In the case that it is a diameter of the bore on the middle sphere, your new spheres will result in slightly softer ride than with original spheres, because this diameter is bigger (1.25 mm instead of 1.1 mm - making 29% difference of the bore's area). The ride will be a bit more 'floaty'.
Accumulator sphere has opening about 2.5 cm (or so) in diameter, then it is machined to about 0.5 cm orifice. Small part of membrane is visible through the orifice.
According to your description, HA middle spheres are very similar - damper valve is not on the sphere, but in the stiffness regulator, where the sphere is mounted.
There's one thing I'm interested in. You said that 'wide bore on the sphere is machined to a much finer point'. Was this point about 0.5 cm in diameter (like in the accu sphere), or it was close to 1 mm. I'm asking this because middle sphere also have 'central bore diameter' declared, and I'm not sure is this diameter of that orifice in the sphere, or it's a bore on a damper valve, situated in a stiffness regulator.
In the case that it is a diameter of the bore on the middle sphere, your new spheres will result in slightly softer ride than with original spheres, because this diameter is bigger (1.25 mm instead of 1.1 mm - making 29% difference of the bore's area). The ride will be a bit more 'floaty'.
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first-things-first
- Posts: 44
- Joined: 13 Oct 2002, 04:20