2012 Citroen C5 X7: stick or replace with C5X?

[NickGood]

We've had our 2012 X7 HDI Tourer Nav+ manual since 2014 and it has been a phenomenal car. Extremely reliable, comfortable, plenty fast enough, economical - really the best car we have ever owned by a long way.

Apart from a windscreen wiper needing replacement in 2016 (Citroen wanted to replace both at a cost of £1100.... I bought one off ebay for £40 and fitted it in less than an hour) and CV joints last year, nothing has gone wrong and it's only needed consumables (including timing belt etc) at it's services (to my shame, we have followed the service schedule to the letter, meaning it only gets one every 2 years, not even needing oil topped up between them).

We have though just had to replace the steering rack but have been expecting this for years so can't complain. However at 14 years old and 125k miles, we are wondering whether now is the time to replace it before more expensive things go wrong. So, two questions:

1. What kind of problems/expenses would you expect at this mileage and age, ie, cheap stuff or potentially major borkage?

2. If we replace, we are thinking of getting rid of our (appallingly built) 2015 Fiat 500 which is largely used for local stuff including my wife's 16 mile total daily commute, and potentially dropping to one car but going for a hybrid on basis most of our driving is local so would be super cheap, but we can easily do longer journeys such as 300 miles up to daughter's uni here and there. If we do this, then I am strongly drawn to the C5X 1.6 PHEV but am a little worried that with so much complexity (in particular the hybrid components and battery but also the adaptive dampers) will come long term unreliability/high running costs?

As you will have read, we tend to keep cars for a good long time (10 years or so) and really want to make the right decision, which might be to stick with the C5 for longer if your consensus is that we should get a few more years of reliable motoring out of it. One further idea is to get rid of the Fiat and replace with a leased Renault Twingo Etech for commute and local stuff when it comes out next year, keeping the C5 for longer journeys or where we need the space. We haven't leased a car before but suspect there will be some cheap deals and can get it through the company scheme so saving tax making it pretty cheap.

Apologies for this super long post, but very undecided and would really value your expertise and opinions!

[mickthemaverick]

I don't know about expertise but happy to give you my opinion.

I would say that you can happily run the C5 up to 180k+ with good maintenance but I would consider reducing your service periods to 1 year and keep an eye on the engine bay for leaks. As to selling the 500 and leasing a new Twingo I'd say don't!! No problem with the Twingo but leasing really is a good way of spending money with nothing to show for it at the end of the lease. I used to sell car finance packages, mainly contract hire and lease to companies and it is not a good way to go for the private individual. Better to get an independent loan and buy the car outright so that at the end of the loan repayment period you have a car to show for it.

[Sloppysod]

The C5 X7, being a tourer it's got hydropneumatic suspension. The front to rear pipe fractured while I was preparing it for a MOT, I scraped too much corrosion away! Lucky for me this was in my garage, but unlucky for me getting a replacement pipe was, near on impossible. So I bought my C5X PHEV. But, before the scrap man a cometh a repair became possible, and I put the car back on the road, sold it and it's still going (now with more than 104,000 miles).
C5-X7 vs C5X, X7 was definitely more comfortable on a run suspension wise as the 5X does wallow a bit when fully loaded. it's also a bit noisier than what I remember my X7 was, but that could be me or, the fact it's a modern car, with very thin metal work and 19" low profile tyres.
Comfort: Seats, visibility, steering, auto box, maneuverability is great, definitely can get it in smaller parking spaces than the X7.
Economy: depends how you drive it. Fully charged battery and upto around 100 miles, 90+mpg, then starts dropping off. Empty battery, loaded, 60-65mph, 55(ish)mpg. Electric only summer/winter 38/22 on a charge. As I do a lot of local miles, I only use petrol on long journeys.( this is a summary from this year so far). I'm anorak and keep records of all the fuel it's hadsince I bought it. (September was 1,100 mile trip to Belgium and back)

Overnight charge for £0.92p, on a 13amp plug, that's at worse £0.04p/mile.

Reliability: biggest failure is batteries, there are two, underbonnet(Lead Acid) and in the Armrest (AGM), service schedule says change every 4 and 5 years, but I'm a replace if required servicer, so I'll find out how long they last eventually .
Servicing: I don't use my Citroën dealer, did for first two to keep warranty. Now it's oil change every year and MOT £190. Anything that needs doing As & When (If).

Your worries, some early cars did have rear suspension warranty claims, but apparently the replacement parts were not much different - knocking over bumps - mine doesn't.

If mine was written off tomorrow, would I buy another, probably not, as there are far more efficient cars out there, but then again are they as comfortable? . I'll cross that bridge when I have to, but at the moment I have a car which I like that suits my needs.

[Richard_C]

I had exactly the same model X7 tourer, one of the best cars I've ever owned and I regret selling it.

Like you I have typically bought recent pre-owned and kept them for several years. It was getting on a bit and Mrs me - we are also getting on a bit - had some arthritis issues and getting out of the fairly deep front seats could be difficult. We got a C4 Picasso, absolutely fine, but long trips like to the alps with 4 of us to ski felt like an event in the X7, the Pic seemed very efficient and ordinary. I think that 160 engine 'outperformed its specification': all that torque meant you could fly along autoroutes with no effort. Emotionally I would keep the X7, have full recovery berakdoen cover andt be prepared to 'throw it away' if anything big fails.

The C5X is a very attractive alternative. I ended up with a C4 ("We don't need anything that big and it won't go in the garage") and tempted by deals got a new one. Absolutely fine, but all the built in avionics drive me mad, dealers seem useless and I do wonder about it as a long term proposition: maybe 3 years or perhaps 5.

If you bought a decent recent C5X it will probably depreciate by £200 a month initially, so that pays for a lot of X7 fixing.

Dorking - how often do you need to drive into the ULEZ? Might be a factor.

Dorking - also a breed of chicken - not a lot of people know that, even people who live in Dorking. Spectacular silver cock.

[NickGood]

I don't know about expertise but happy to give you my opinion.

I would say that you can happily run the C5 up to 180k+ with good maintenance but I would consider reducing your service periods to 1 year and keep an eye on the engine bay for leaks. As to selling the 500 and leasing a new Twingo I'd say don't!! No problem with the Twingo but leasing really is a good way of spending money with nothing to show for it at the end of the lease. I used to sell car finance packages, mainly contract hire and lease to companies and it is not a good way to go for the private individual. Better to get an independent loan and buy the car outright so that at the end of the loan repayment period you have a car to show for it.

Thank you Mick. That sounds like good advice on both counts!

[NickGood]

The C5 X7, being a tourer it's got hydropneumatic suspension. The front to rear pipe fractured while I was preparing it for a MOT, I scraped too much corrosion away! Lucky for me this was in my garage, but unlucky for me getting a replacement pipe was, near on impossible. So I bought my C5X PHEV. But, before the scrap man a cometh a repair became possible, and I put the car back on the road, sold it and it's still going (now with more than 104,000 miles).
C5-X7 vs C5X, X7 was definitely more comfortable on a run suspension wise as the 5X does wallow a bit when fully loaded. it's also a bit noisier than what I remember my X7 was, but that could be me or, the fact it's a modern car, with very thin metal work and 19" low profile tyres.
Comfort: Seats, visibility, steering, auto box, maneuverability is great, definitely can get it in smaller parking spaces than the X7.
Economy: depends how you drive it. Fully charged battery and upto around 100 miles, 90+mpg, then starts dropping off. Empty battery, loaded, 60-65mph, 55(ish)mpg. Electric only summer/winter 38/22 on a charge. As I do a lot of local miles, I only use petrol on long journeys.( this is a summary from this year so far). I'm anorak and keep records of all the fuel it's hadsince I bought it. (September was 1,100 mile trip to Belgium and back)

Overnight charge for £0.92p, on a 13amp plug, that's at worse £0.04p/mile.

Reliability: biggest failure is batteries, there are two, underbonnet(Lead Acid) and in the Armrest (AGM), service schedule says change every 4 and 5 years, but I'm a replace if required servicer, so I'll find out how long they last eventually .
Servicing: I don't use my Citroën dealer, did for first two to keep warranty. Now it's oil change every year and MOT £190. Anything that needs doing As & When (If).

Your worries, some early cars did have rear suspension warranty claims, but apparently the replacement parts were not much different - knocking over bumps - mine doesn't.

If mine was written off tomorrow, would I buy another, probably not, as there are far more efficient cars out there, but then again are they as comfortable? . I'll cross that bridge when I have to, but at the moment I have a car which I like that suits my needs.

Thank you. Really great advice here and your fuel costs and experience are really interesting as I had struggled to find what it would likely be if, for example, we did a 600 mile trip to Newcastle and back without using expensive public chargers (assuming petrol is cheaper). Any idea of what mpg does at more like 70-75 mph - assume more like 40-45mpg? Incidentally our X7 is on steel suspension which has been very reliable but I always hankered after the proper version, but when we needed a car when the previous died I couldn't find a suitable model.

[NickGood]

I had exactly the same model X7 tourer, one of the best cars I've ever owned and I regret selling it.

Like you I have typically bought recent pre-owned and kept them for several years. It was getting on a bit and Mrs me - we are also getting on a bit - had some arthritis issues and getting out of the fairly deep front seats could be difficult. We got a C4 Picasso, absolutely fine, but long trips like to the alps with 4 of us to ski felt like an event in the X7, the Pic seemed very efficient and ordinary. I think that 160 engine 'outperformed its specification': all that torque meant you could fly along autoroutes with no effort. Emotionally I would keep the X7, have full recovery berakdoen cover andt be prepared to 'throw it away' if anything big fails.

The C5X is a very attractive alternative. I ended up with a C4 ("We don't need anything that big and it won't go in the garage") and tempted by deals got a new one. Absolutely fine, but all the built in avionics drive me mad, dealers seem useless and I do wonder about it as a long term proposition: maybe 3 years or perhaps 5.

If you bought a decent recent C5X it will probably depreciate by £200 a month initially, so that pays for a lot of X7 fixing.

Dorking - how often do you need to drive into the ULEZ? Might be a factor.

Dorking - also a breed of chicken - not a lot of people know that, even people who live in Dorking. Spectacular silver cock.

Thank you Richard. You have created more of a dilemma as like you I think the 160 engine is so driveable with plenty of power always available but super economical, reliable and with the most massive range (750 miles (true) has been achieved on long journeys...try that in an EV!).

Good point too re. the depreciation. I am not that fussed by depreciation generally as keep cars for so long that the total monthly amount ends up being so little, but perhaps we should keep the X7 until something major goes wrong....

ULEZ we avoid in the Citroen, head there in the 500 if we really have to but train takes the strain normally!

And yes, Dorking chicken is a funny bird! There's a 20 foot high silver cock on the roundabout by the town....it's quite the local landmark!

[Sloppysod]

[ Any idea of what mpg does at more like 70-75 mph - assume more like 40-45mpg?

Probably, but I posted earlier, 60-65, loaded, empty battery around 55mpg, I tend to drive economically, rather than get their quick.

They did sell a standard C5X 180, no PHEV, and the WLTP figures is 43.9mpg, so an extra 10+ ain't bad for lugging a 12.4 kWh battery about.

[DS9]

The question posed has a lot of answers, you can go in a few directions. Personally I'd move on from the old cars you have and go one of a few routes.

1) C5X would probably do you well if you could find a good low mileage version but they are hard to find now. I do like the Peugeot 3008/ 5008 and nearly new 145hp hybrid versions are well priced at the moment.

2) You could go full electric if you can get cheap home electricity. I know the long trips to Uni and back will dent it slightly in terms of costs but overall it'll still be cheap. Ideal for the wife's commute.

3) Plug in Hybrid with say 30-60 miles range maybe the best of both worlds?

4) The final thing is leasing. I know one of the replies says don't go there but I think there are very tempting offers if you are willing to increase your spending and arent too bothered about brand. Unlike PCP pricing isnt linked to depreciation and road tax is included, handy on the £40k+ models. Whilst £350-£400 a month for 2 years for a Passat/ ID7 might sound like a lot remember these are approx £50k list, so owning one for the first 2 years of their lives and it costing maybe £8,500 - £10k aint a bad deal at all. They may even give you a good price to own it at the end of the term.

[DS9]

[ Any idea of what mpg does at more like 70-75 mph - assume more like 40-45mpg?

Probably, but I posted earlier, 60-65, loaded, empty battery around 55mpg, I tend to drive economically, rather than get their quick.

They did sell a standard C5X 180, no PHEV, and the WLTP figures is 43.9mpg, so an extra 10+ ain't bad for lugging a 12.4 kWh battery about.

I have the 1.6PHEV and have hardly charged it from a plug in ages. I drive circa 75ish on the motorway and with 0% traction battery it's around 45mpg give or take. I think if you fully charged and drove it 300 miles it'd be around 50mpg. The good thing though is after a run it charges the little battery so even if I am stuck in traffic for 10-15 mins the engine runs on the leccy.

[Sloppysod]

I have the 1.6PHEV and have hardly charged it from a plug in ages. I drive circa 75ish on the motorway and with 0% traction battery it's around 45mpg give or take. I think if you fully charged and drove it 300 miles it'd be around 50mpg. The good thing though is after a run it charges the little battery so even if I am stuck in traffic for 10-15 mins the engine runs on the leccy.

I think I have found a 'trick', I am away from home at the moment, I have done a number of trips recently starting off with 0% battery, and at the end of the trip achieved at least 47% zero emissions by using the B-mode. I think with this enabled it behaves morr like a mild hybrid than a normal hybrid(Ie Toyota).

[DS9]

It's not a trick as such. if I brake gently the charge bar expands and I always try and make sure it's never fully lit as that may means that excess is being wasted. So I sometimes use B sparingly say when im going down a hill in electric mode, I like toggle it off and on. But I never have it on all the time as it just causes excessive braking and to counterbalance that the engine will need to work more.

About a month ago I drove down to Dover and there is a long steepish decline at the end, must be a couple of miles. Driving at 75ish the speedo went blue, and most of the way down that hill I had B activated because the lack of engine braking was speeding the car up. By the time I'd got to the bottom the traction battery was showing 4%! by far a record for me when I've seen 1%-2% in the past.

Overall though, say I go on a run and the ancilliary battery is well charged I can easy do a 5-10 mile trip in start stop trip in traffic and get 40%-60% zero emissions showing.