C5 Tourer - Blown Turbo

[bramley33]

Hello All, would appreciate any advice and opinions on my dilemma - repair or break ?

The car: 2015 C5 2.0Hdi Tourer Exclusive, first reg 01Jan2015. Purchased 1 owner from main dealer Oct2017 74k on clock. Currently 136k. MOT recently to Oct2027. Maintained by Martin at Pleiades. Condition good to excellent, few stone chips to front, 2x alloys could do with refurb. Cambelt done a year ago, suspension flushed in the summer. Clutch still good. Suspension fine, The only significant failure was a leaking o/s/r suspension unit replaced under warranty in Oct2018.

What happened: Driving from Leicester to Chichester on first day of holiday. Just south of Bicester on the A34 in fast heavy traffic the engine suddenly went into overun and cut out within a couple of seconds. Fortunately I was on the inside lane doing about 60mph, in flash saw a puff of dark smoke in my rear view mirror, slapped the hazards on, saw the verge looked fairly flat and managed to mount the kerb getting the car off the carriageway while rolling. The whole scenario couldn't have been more than 10 seconds. After heart had settled down cautiously started the car which went into economy mode so switched off. At that point first thought was cambelt so turned off immediately. Checked under bonnet, cambelt ok so then realised must be turbo. A short distance ahead of me, 200 yards or so, was a Shell filling station. As the verge was fairly flat I managed to limp the car carefully to the filling station where there was a rough truck layby at the rear. The car remained there until recovery to a garage at 10.30pm on the Friday night. This whole debacle started at about 3pm that afternoon and involved diabolical service from my breakdown insurer, which is whole separate can of worms.

The problem: The car was inspected on a lift by a local mechanic at Weston on Saturday morning. The large front pipe was bent down lower than the engine and a quantity of oil spilled out. It was clear little else could be acheived without major dismantling. It was agreed the mechanic would pursue repair costs the following Monday. The car was driven off the ramp and has not been started since (although running it in econmy mode appears not to be a problem). The garage is happy for the car to sit there for a while until a way forward is resolved. His quote was £2400 inc a new Garrett turbo and all ancilliaries but was a bit reluctant to take the job on as it was outside his usual remit and didn't have much by way of diagnostic kit. A phone estimate with a Citroen repair garage was also £2400.
Previously the diag codes at the roadside were: P16A0, P11AB, P2291, P1497, P1496.

The predicament: Head says repairs will closely equal its value so try to dispose of it as 'spares/repairs' (or if in desparation scrap it - unlikely!). Alternatively heart says try to find a repairer who will religiously follow the procedure below:

1. Full Intake & Intercooler Flush: Complete removal and chemical cleaning of the intercooler and boost pipes to safely remove any engine oil pushed past the seals before P16A0 triggered.
2. Replacement Oil Feed and Return Pipes: Fitting brand-new turbo oil lines (not cleaning or reusing the old ones) to protect the replacement unit.
3. Oil Sump Debris Inspection: Dropping the oil pan to inspect for/clean out any potential metal debris from the failed bearings, followed by a fresh engine oil and filter change.
4. Turbo Coolant Lines & Seals: Replacing all gaskets, O-rings, and copper washers on the water-cooling feed/return lines to the Garrett core (I noticed a slight coolant level drop prior to recovery).
5. Actuator Calibration: Full calibration and adaptation of the new VNT actuator using Diagbox to resolve the P1496/P1497 faults.

There is a feeling the engine has been saved by the immediate cut off and absolute minimal running in limp mode. It seems this is quite a difficult and time consuming job and general advice is to walk away from it. I'm reluctant to give up on it but am no motor engineer although have a history with Citroens since 1987, love the current car, but acknowledge time is up on its type. I'd be very grateful what any member here thinks, hope it is not a lost cause and maybe even suggest a garage who would genuinely do a competant repair.

Apologies for the length of this post but thought chapter and verse would be helpful. If you got this far, Many Thanks. Graham

[PaulC5]

Around 2005 I had a turbo fail on a petrol Saab 9-5 on the M6, it surrounded the car in white smoke as I stopped on the Penrith slip road. The RAC recovered it to a local garage. They replaced the turbo and also the cat and lambda sensor as they said they would be oil contaminated. I can not remember what else was done but the cost was over £1k.

[Stickyfinger]

It is a pure financial choice.....in this case a negative one if not doing the work yourself I suspect.

That said, it is not a difficult job nor is it complicated by being "a Citroen", parts I suspect will be obtainable as well.

It may be worth a punt to have the turbo taken off and inspected to see if it was a total detonation requiring "all" the quoted work/parts or a more simple 2nd hand turbo/refurbished.....A punt is a punt....do you feel lucky ?

[ekjdm14]

Agreed, the main issues I'd worry about on something this new would be whether oil made its way into the cat/dpf system. Aside from that, I'd suggest if you're able to pull the turbo yourself maybe see how bad it is (may not be as horrible as you fear) and providing the housings are OK perhaps try someone like Nerings (on ebay) for a new or refurbished CHRA (centre housing rotating assembly, or in English the bit that does the spinning & blowing business)

Not sure on a VNT type setup, but I've had Garrett T2 units from them for around £100, so the rest of the expenditure would be simply seals/gaskets and labour. Honestly, I'd be tempted to clean out the oil lines & replace oil and filter and leave it at that since it'd take a huge failure to put significant material into the sump & most of that would be caught by the filter anyway.

I suppose it comes down to how thorough of a job you want to do & how much of the "donkey work" you could do yourself, but I'd imagine you could bring the cost down significantly if you were prepared to get stuck into it and just have the calibration work done. Definitely sounds like the car is worth saving, especially given the reliability of anything made after 2015 & the fact you know the car and it's maintenance history so well.

[bramley33]

Around 2005 I had a turbo fail on a petrol Saab 9-5 on the M6, it surrounded the car in white smoke as I stopped on the Penrith slip road. The RAC recovered it to a local garage. They replaced the turbo and also the cat and lambda sensor as they said they would be oil contaminated. I can not remember what else was done but the cost was over £1k.

Thanks Paul, thats seems like quite a lot of work for £1k even at 2005 rates? Did the car settle down afterwards? IIRC and the 9-5 is not that dissimilar to the older inline 99's we had once where there's quite a bit of room to work around? At 73 and no big mileage anymore I was hoping this C5 would give me a few more years. Everyone I speak to say I'd be opening up a can of worms and throwing good money after bad.

[bramley33]

It is a pure financial choice.....in this case a negative one if not doing the work yourself I suspect.

That said, it is not a difficult job nor is it complicated by being "a Citroen", parts I suspect will be obtainable as well.

It may be worth a punt to have the turbo taken off and inspected to see if it was a total detonation requiring "all" the quoted work/parts or a more simple 2nd hand turbo/refurbished.....A punt is a punt....do you feel lucky ?

Thanks Alasdair, quite so! Given the issue I feel fairly lucky that I wasn't doing 70 in the outside lane and when the thing went bang I could coast onto the verge and roll to a rest. Having been flagged with so many negatives from the garages I've approached a repair does make me wary. I suppose I'm raising the delicate question for a recommendation of a reliable garage who would treat the job proactively bit by bit.......

[bramley33]

Agreed, the main issues I'd worry about on something this new would be whether oil made its way into the cat/dpf system. Aside from that, I'd suggest if you're able to pull the turbo yourself maybe see how bad it is (may not be as horrible as you fear) and providing the housings are OK perhaps try someone like Nerings (on ebay) for a new or refurbished CHRA (centre housing rotating assembly, or in English the bit that does the spinning & blowing business)

Not sure on a VNT type setup, but I've had Garrett T2 units from them for around £100, so the rest of the expenditure would be simply seals/gaskets and labour. Honestly, I'd be tempted to clean out the oil lines & replace oil and filter and leave it at that since it'd take a huge failure to put significant material into the sump & most of that would be caught by the filter anyway.

I suppose it comes down to how thorough of a job you want to do & how much of the "donkey work" you could do yourself, but I'd imagine you could bring the cost down significantly if you were prepared to get stuck into it and just have the calibration work done. Definitely sounds like the car is worth saving, especially given the reliability of anything made after 2015 & the fact you know the car and it's maintenance history so well.

Thanks for the positive reply! Definitely food for thought. My days of "donkey work" are sadly long since passed. That said, my Xantia has been standing for months gathering moss and in need of a new petrol pump which is just about within my capabilities. Being carless temporarily has nudged me into sorting that at least....

On the negatives, the main thing I've been confronted with is the position of the turbo at the bottom rear of the engine. To me it appears as a minimum the subframe has to be dropped then there's been mention of parting the drive shafts. Seems also a lot depends on whether the mechanic is confident enough to get to the back of the turbo working 'blind'? In fairness to the garages they are quoting by phone and including a new Garrett turbo at around £1000, plus Citroens workshop labour estimates 5 - 8 hours for the job. Fortunately I'm not under pressure where the car is sitting for a while.

[PaulC5]

Around 2005 I had a turbo fail on a petrol Saab 9-5 on the M6, it surrounded the car in white smoke as I stopped on the Penrith slip road. The RAC recovered it to a local garage. They replaced the turbo and also the cat and lambda sensor as they said they would be oil contaminated. I can not remember what else was done but the cost was over £1k.

Thanks Paul, thats seems like quite a lot of work for £1k even at 2005 rates? Did the car settle down afterwards? IIRC and the 9-5 is not that dissimilar to the older inline 99's we had once where there's quite a bit of room to work around? At 73 and no big mileage anymore I was hoping this C5 would give me a few more years. Everyone I speak to say I'd be opening up a can of worms and throwing good money after bad.

The parts were the expensive things, not really the labour. Back home I had to adjust an actuator on the turbo, possibly the waste gate arm length (but not sure now) so it moved the right amount against a vacuum gauge/Mityvac pump. On this car the turbo was on the front of the engine so easy to get to.

[bramley33]

Around 2005 I had a turbo fail on a petrol Saab 9-5 on the M6, it surrounded the car in white smoke as I stopped on the Penrith slip road. The RAC recovered it to a local garage. They replaced the turbo and also the cat and lambda sensor as they said they would be oil contaminated. I can not remember what else was done but the cost was over £1k.

Thanks Paul, thats seems like quite a lot of work for £1k even at 2005 rates? Did the car settle down afterwards? IIRC and the 9-5 is not that dissimilar to the older inline 99's we had once where there's quite a bit of room to work around? At 73 and no big mileage anymore I was hoping this C5 would give me a few more years. Everyone I speak to say I'd be opening up a can of worms and throwing good money after bad.

The parts were the expensive things, not really the labour. Back home I had to adjust an actuator on the turbo, possibly the waste gate arm length (but not sure now) so it moved the right amount against a vacuum gauge/Mityvac pump. On this car the turbo was on the front of the engine so easy to get to.

Thought so Paul, regret I'm not into the technicalities so in the hands of those knowing better that I! Older than yours, but the two 99's in the family were brilliant. Sad loss, SAAB. So, back to the dilemma, telephone quote from Citroen agent £2400 on a car worth only a little more repaired? Hope for a good repair and hope it doesn't go bang again? I appreciate it SHOULDN'T be a bad result but feelings aren't all that optimistic...... Replacing it with something (any make) at say £5-10k may prove problematic also.... Comment appreciated.